"Real Aeromodelling"

[Myron Beaumont]

Thanks Timbo

It got a response though didn't it .? It was starting to get to the ARTF/proper build syndrome thing again from some due to my unwieldy title .That wasn't the intention as you realise .Yep,big improvement in presentation . 

Just thought ! It's an age thing isn't it ?

Edited By Myron Beaumont on 17/05/2010 11:07:58

[David Turner 5]

Plenty of building going on here. I did have an ARTF, though ... just the once. Not much interest in kits, either. With the exception of SIG, I have never found a kit that was up to much. Mind you, I haven't tried Goldberg. All the Brit stuff that I've ever built has been DIRE.

 

A couple of weeks' back, I built a lovely pair of wings; Fowler flaps and everything. No fuselage, just the wings. How sad is that?

 

'Spect I'll devise a nice fus to suit them, one of these days.

 

You just cannot beat "rolling your own".

 

 

20-odd years ago, I built a Precedent Stampe. I swore then, that I'd never go near another one of those (though they fly very well). However, being a mug, I got roped into helping with the build of another one. My God, it's as bad as I recall. It's like a prison sentence.

[Hamish]

Having started to scratch build and have now building a few models I think the ARTF have made this process a lot simpler.  Had plans for a model that showed antiwarp panels, "ding" edges to the tail feathers, caps to the wing ribs going cross grain on the top and along the grain on the bottom, all for what purpose?  Having crashed a few ARTF I could see how they are built and have followed suit by omitting  a lot of what appears to be a designers particular foible in my scratch builds and they all fly as expected.

 

The beauty of scratch builds is I can change, within reason, to suit my own foibles and I am fortunate that I have time to do so.  

[Vecchio Austriaco]

Just one word about ARTF's. I don't htink we should bann them completely as for some of the people there is not enough time and or they may not have the necessary skills to build their own models.

 

Also I think that some of todays standard practices of ARTF's (and here I mean the good ones, not the copies) like using finite element software to calculate the fuselage structure and laser cut the parts cannot be copied so easily by everybody.

 

This gives lightweight and strong structures which we, the proper model builders, cannot reach. I don't think I am bad as a model builder, I have my tools like precision circular saw, lathe and so on but I cannot dream of building such a perfect structure as the fuselage of a good ARTF is today.  (Some may remember I am a Sebby fan )

 

Another issue is the price. If you are building a kit or from a plan I am not sure if you can build your model for the same money as an ARTF would cost.

 

We have the proof that building is no longer on the top list of popularity if we look into the shops. I was last Saturday in one of the leading shops in Austria (Der Schweighofer) and it was not possible to find all materials (wood, hinges, paints, accessories) which were on my shoping list. What you can find are several hundred different ARTF kits and the necessary accessories for those.  

 

In several smaller shops in Italy you don't find any building material at all, they followed the market needs and concentrate on ARTF's only.

 

So it is on us - if we can convince the younger generation that building is fun and can give not only a lot of satisfaction as also some skills which may be useful for the professional life like planning, logistics, knowledge about materials and technology - then we will find again more plans, kits and materials in the shops.

VA

[Myron Beaumont]

Vecchio

Well spoken. BUT it still comes down to what you can create out of what you can resource irrespective of your budget . In other words -if you had no money -how could I make a flying machine I asked myself ? That to me is aeromodelling as I understand it to mean .OK I don't make my own Tx's & Rx's & servos etc but I get my thrill starting with a sheet of brown paper & ending up with an aeroplane fitted with bits that unfortunatey I can't make for myself -like we used to / had to !   (Circuit board (vero- board) / components /wiring/soldering iron & so on ) all part of the creative process

[Colin Naylar]

There are always going to be folks who want to spend more time flying than building. Building models is not a lifetime achievement for everyone but perhaps skilful flying is. In my youth, in the mid 60s I spent nearly two years building models for affluent people in Malta who had no desire at all to wield a craft knife but were hooked on flyng. I was in the RN at the time and it provided a useful income to support my own love of the hobby with lots of flying in the mediterranean sun. Thankfully ARTF hadn't been dreamt of then or I'd have been out of a job!

[Nick Farrow]

Colin,

 

You beat me to it! Whilst I like building its a means to flying, so an artf is good news as far as I'm concerned. Its a few years since I tried to build a delta peak charger from scratch, now I would not even think about it. I guess the same does with the plane itself, I started a few years back with a Gentle glider, then gave up as I got fed up with the bungeee and short flights (not much in way of pilot skills then!) I then went to a smaller nicad powered balsa glider/trainer kit and nearly left the hobby, I spent 2 minutes flying and 2 weeks rebuilding. Then enter the mpx Easystar what an eye opener, little incidents that would have trashed the balsa wings never even registered on the Ez*. I have stuck with foam ever since and it would take alot to go back to balsa bashing! I still get a real thrill out of flying my cheap gws p40, 2 years on. So I guess real aeromodelling is what ever you want it to be, no one size fits all?

[Bert]

 

What Myron is saying is that model flying is not aeromodelling.

 

The SMAE became the BMFA to turn the focus from 'model engineering' to 'model flying'

 

Sticking a couple of bits of foam together over an afternoon isn't 'engineering' of any sort.

 

I have a Graupner Terry and a GWS Formosa and very good they are, but it's not 'aeromodelling'

 

Bert

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

As the one that may be responsible (at least in part with Myron) for steering this onto ARTF and building I just want to reiterate...

 

I have nothing at all against folks who go the ARTF route. I really do understand and say "good luck" to them and I hope they enjoy their flying. I would hate this to degenerate into ARTF vs building. That wasn't the point. There is room for both.

 

But I suppose the two points that do come out are

 

1. is flying ARTF's aeromodelling (note the emphasis) or is it something else? Something that's definately related, but not quite the same? Something just as valid, but different?

 

2. Is the current popularity of ARTF's narrowing our horizons? It gives us a limited number of prototypes that - in my opinion - are too alike. And so does that confine our imagination and ambition. And in turn - back to the OP! - does that end up limiting the scope of our discussions on forums such as this?

 

One thing that alerted me to this possibility is that fact that I'll be going to Weston next month. "Mmmm", I thought, "I could do with a second 'hack' to fly around next winter. I'll get something ARTF so it wont interfere with my main building schedule for the planes I really want". And you know what? I searched and searched and I couldn't find a single ARTF that really interested me - Oh if I wanted a Spitfire or a Mustang, no problem, take your pick. If I wanted a Yak etc. hundreds to choose from. But I wanted a "golden age" bipe maybe something like that - 1 or 2 if your lucky. Which rule themselves out for one reason or another. Looks like to have what I want, I'll have to build it afterall

 

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Sorry Bert, we cross posted saying similar things really!

 

BEB

[Phil Brooks]

Isn't it all summed up by the fact that the organisation that prided itself on being called "The Society of Model Aeronautical Engineers" now prefers to be called "The British Model Flying Association".  What's in a name?  We may go all Victor Meldrew, but like it or not, that's the way the hobby is now for most people.  Like many, I have a selection of plan built, kit built and ARTF in the stable (though none of them are currently flyable).  Like many hobbies, there's a lot more pre-fabrication than there used to be.  How many amateur radio enthusiasts still wind their own coils?  How many RC fliers build their own radio gear?  If you can buy it better and cheaper than building it yourself, why not do so?  I, personally, enjoy building, but I'm not going to decry anyone who prefers to buy his or her planes ready made.  

[Erfolg]

Do ARTF aeroplanes do fit into true aeromodelling, in my opinion yes.

 

At a personal level, I build and fly very few ARTF models, therefore my opinions are based on a very narrow basis. My opinion of them is that they fly very well, often much better than many plan or kit models. The manufactures are not afraid to build in lightness, where as many a plan and kit model, can be heavy in comparison. This really maters in the flying characteristics. This lightness philosophy often results in a model types being successfully modeled, where as kits and plans were treacherous dogs, waiting to bite, trying to constantly to re-kit themselves.

 

In many respects, the modern world is better for many than the 1950s. No more darning socks, home made clothes, cars that needed constant attention, we now have central heating systems, no more freezing homes. Even kits are better made today, with laser cutting and tabs to aid assembly. Is this real aeromodelling, compared to the distant past. I bet even in the 60s, the cry from some was, where is the bambo!

 

I personally build most models i fly, even ARTF models take me a lot longer than a few nights of easy assembly. I see ARTFs as different to balsa, GF construction, still rewarding in its own way, they also can have there own challenges, during assembly.

 

As for the angst of slave labour, do not worry to much, whoever runs the UK, if they do it poorly, it could soon be us. Only today whilst waiting at a set of traffic lights,  I saw an advert for home workers.

 

Erfolg

 

 

Edited By Erfolg on 17/05/2010 16:48:11

[Phil Claridge]

i will fly any thing, kit plan built, foam or plastic long as i didnt have to assemble it