ARTF versus Self Build

[Paul Williams]

We all have preferences when it comes to this subject and there are pluses and minuses to be had whichever way we chose to obtain our pride and glory. I have learnt many lessons reading the various subjects discussed on this forum and now I wish to share my experiences with you all.

I spent many hours deciding my winter build projects, should I build from plan or take the easier route and buy ARTF? After all the offered advice and debates I thought what the hell do both. I first purchased a Balsa USA kit ¼ Scale J3 Cub, my first large scale model. The build was an education and massive learning curve It went well and I enjoyed the process immensely. I was able to put my personal stamp on the model but the biggest plus for me was one I had not considered.

Shortly after the maiden flight the cub was involved in a mid air collision. One of those 1000=1 scenarios the plane took damage to the port wing, fuselage and undercarriage. I was gutted but picked up the pieces and headed for the shed. Within 3 days the cub was back in the air showing no signs of its recent crash and my wallet was hardly suffering the effects either. It was easy to repair due to my understanding of how it was built and having plans to replicate the parts needed. What was a major blow turned into a bit of inconvenience.

The ARTF route I took was another story. Again I bought big and for me the most expensive model I have to date. The Black Horse giant scale Corsair was everything I hoped it would be so I paid my £475 and headed home to build. If your interested in how that went I wrote a short review on this forum. The Corsair flew great and I was not disappointed until I had reason to try out Ripmax’s after sales service. I managed to damage the plane when the engine cut just after lifting off one day, the wing was damaged and minor cosmetic damage elsewhere. I phoned Ripmax to quote me the wing panel and cowel I needed, only to be informed they were not a stocked item! This was nearly four weeks ago. The rep although sympathetic informed me he would email the factory and see if the parts could be purchased he did advise me there would be a 6-8 weeks delivery time!!

I heard nothing for 4 days so I called back to be told communication was slow because the factory was half way round the world and they were all in bed when we were up. Ok although I always considered e-mails to be quite fast I agreed to phone back in another couple of days. The news was not good then either, apparently Black Horse build the wings to suit each fuselage so could not supply the parts needed. The ripmax rep agreed this was unfair and offered to have another go I was to ring back in another week. I duly phoned after 7 days and the same rep could not remember who I was or what he was supposed to be doing for me. I swallowed my anger at this and reminded him to which he offered to call me back. When he did so I was told maybe he could order the parts but could not promise the fact.

Some days later I called him to be informed the factory email was down and they could not be contacted

So here we are 4 weeks later the spares still not ordered and £1000 of aircraft sat in my garage missing this superb flying weather. I will now have to look at any possible legal action I can take although I fear this will be a non starter. So my pride and joy has turned into a nightmare I have no confidence Ripmax will solve this issue.

5 weeks now and I have a part number and price £120 for half a wing (ouch) the delivery has been promised for 4-8 weeks that makes 13 weeks from the accident IF it arrives within their time scale.

It’s now been over 12 weeks since my corsair was damaged still no sign of replacement parts. The flying season is galloping by and I have never regretted more a purchase than this one.

I certainly hope they start to improve this abysmal after sales service. 

ARTF or Build? I will certainly be building every plane from now on.

[Reno Racer]

I fully agree with you here; I have two ARTFs, a 50 Size Global RC SU-26 and a 50 size Overlander YAK 54, neither of which I could build so lightly; carbon fibre and so on.

However, I build everything else for the very good reason you mentioned on been able to repair quickly, cheaply and modify to my flying tastes or add more scale details etc. To date:

Balsa USA 1/6 Bristol M1

Mk3 WOT4

Uno Wot

Balsa USA 1/4 Neiuport 11 (not started yet)

Brian Taylor 1/5.6 BF109E, my build project for this Winter

Aeronaut Vampire

SIG 4 star 40

SIG Wonder

TN Hawker Hurricane 60 size

Galaxy Magician

and a few I've probably forgot. BTW all have been converted to electric.

[Paul Williams]

I have just had a delivery time from ripmax. NOVEMBER !!!!!

I have to do some thing other than pay these people. I was thinking maybe by stripping off the covering on the port wing it would be possible to reverse engineer and produce a starboard wing. Any body help with this? I would be willing to pay

[Stephen Grigg]

Hi paul,At least you have a price for a replacement part all be it the cost of most of my ARTF models.Ive unfortunatelt in the last couple of weeks lost 3 models  all through circumstances not altogether my fault.The first ,No part available,A ,the second beyond repair,so I wont replace it,the third,cant g et the parts again a fuselage.Ive started to try to repair the easiest onr,the 3rd one and if successful ill have a go at the first one.A collegue at the club ordered the Ripmax Lancaster,its taken 18 months to arrive,theyve made modifications to the spec,so if you want them there extra,Its about £800 pounds for the kit and you dont get wheelsthe finished model will cost him over £2000,and guess what,hw wont be able to fly it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sparks59]

Posted by Paul Williams on 09/08/2010 17:07:44:

I have just had a delivery time from ripmax. NOVEMBER !!!!!

I have to do some thing other than pay these people. I was thinking maybe by stripping off the covering on the port wing it would be possible to reverse engineer and produce a starboard wing. Any body help with this? I would be willing to pay

 

 If I was you Paul, I'd go for doing the repairs yourself. Strip off the covering from the damaged areas and start measuring and cutting templates for the pieces needed. You'll probably get it done in less than a week.

 

I have bludgeoned a few planes and have always managed to get them back into reasonable, airworthy shape, though the weight often increases a little!

sparks 

[Peter Miller]

Welcome to the real modellercs, the builders!

 

That was an enlightening comment, that the wings are built to match the fuselage. So much for accuracy. That means that no one can be sure that any two models will fly the same.

 

Now that you have some building experience you should be able to build a new wing panel.

 

Be an idea to prepare some drawings using the wing to take measurements from and the parts to trace round.

 

You might be able to use the damaged wing by gluing together the small bits to make the patterns

 

One of our members, An experienced builder totalled his Kyosho CAP 232. He pieced together the splinters of the fuselage and made sheet sides. Then he repaired the wings.

 

Unfortunately the model flew just the same as before. i.e. OK but witha vicious desire to spin in. He didn't bother to rebuild it the second time.

 

We also noticed that the airfoil section was bi-convex or semi symmetrical and was UPSIDE DOWN.

 

 

 

[Stephen Grigg]

I did have a midair with my Pulse an although I managed to land the wing was very badly damaged.Iy was my second Pulse and I had a spare half from the first one,the wrong side.I dtarted by purchasing a similar size trailing and leading edgae and from there rebuilt the wing successfully,Give it a go youve nothing to lose.All models atart as a box of bits initially

[gary132]

Being a builder i dont even try to get parts for any artf i have. i simply go down the route of repairing it. ive had the same experiance. all they are interested in is selling a product. they discontinue models so quick your garenteed not to be able to get parts. i build my own but do own a couple of artf's. like you say damage a kit build and because you know it inside out. its not a couple of days and your flying it again. kit building may be more exspensive but you make what you want . its not covered the same as every one elses. and there easy to fix....

[gary132]

 PAUL i do repairs. in fact i prefer crash repairs. give me a shout by pm if your interested. some of my work is on here for you to see.   

http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=42274

Edited By builder_bob on 10/08/2010 10:00:07

[David perry 1]

I suspect that "build the wings to match the fuselages" means that they simply build in sets not batches, i.e. one wing, one fuz.  Hence no spare wings.

 

These things are disposable remember: you pay 500 quid, You LMS pays 300, Ripmax pays about 100, the cost at the factory door is probably 50 quid. Its just disposable tat to them.  Valuable tat, but tat.

 

The value in a model has always been the effort put in by the builder, I cant see that changing though it is interesting to see many new modellers re discovering this as they start the drift to kit and plans built models.

 

Paul I agree with the others, get the wing on your bench, pull off the skin and start rebuilding yourself.  Dont be afraid to change the technique either -   it might be balsa NOW but that doesn't mean you cant  squirt some expanding foam into it and make it a foam wing. Remember, it's YOUR model now.  Also never forget that you have nothing to lose: at the moment you haven't got a flying model. If you try to repair and you truly make a hack of it, you'll still not have a flying model.  I suspect though that once you gird your loins and get on with it you will soon end up with a lovely flying jobby again and a bag of experience!

 

Good luck.

 

David 

 

 

[Paul Williams]

Cheers guys,

Its the cranked wing thats putting me off its far more complicated than anying I have done before. However your words inspire so I will push on

 

Cheers

[David perry 1]

Paul,

A cranked wing is just a wing with dihedral !  Honestly, open it up and you'll see the way ahead.  If you get stuck, shout.  Oh, and please post pictures...we love to see a guy struggle!!! 

 

David 

[Paul Williams]

Bit grim eh!

[simon burch]

Looks like the main spars are intact (or reasonably in the same place).

[andy watson]

Actually thats better than I thought it might be.

 

Off the top of my head, the main damage is only in one section of the gull wing, with a bit of overspill.  Here would be my approach (from 1 photo!)

 

Strip the covering off the damaged area and try get an idea of the method of building.

 

If you think you can work that out, then rebuild it- pay attention to methods of joining wood together- for example the leading edge.  There was an article in this months RCM&E about just that.  The tricky bit will be the ribs.  If you think you can duplicate them, then fair enough.

 

If you can't get your head around the assembly, or things like the ribs etc are too dificult to duplicate, then you need to adopt a different method (which I think will work better in the long run).  Strip the covering off the other wing.  Now being careful you can use a piece of paper to make a template of any pieces.  This will have to be done in situ, and will be a bit of a pain, but nothing too difficult.  The other advantage with this is you can see exactly how the wing is constructed.  This will make the building process easier to understand, but you will have 2 wings to recover.

 

The covering is a different problem.  Looking at the photo it appears to be film.  You need to match it or replace it.  Hopefully the box will say if it's a proprietry brand, in which case it should be simple enough to match the base.    If it's their own stuff, it might be more difficult.  One option might be to go the scale rebuild route!  See if you can find a specific plane, or paint scheme that has the damaged area done differently then you could reproduce that- I am thinking about things like the invasion stripes sometimes seen on spitfires.  Otherwise you might just need to either patch it as best you can, or recover the whole wing (although that would then not match the fuselage!!)

 

The really good news though, is cost.  The balsa will cost maybe £10-£20 depending on what is needed.  Another £20 for covering, and that's about it.

 

It's definately worth repairing though.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I agree with Andy - I thought the damage was much worse than this! OK its not a "walk in the park" but it looks eminantly repairable to me. Remember Paul you're a builder - you have a sucessful build under your belt so this presents no "show stopping" problems.

 

The method Andy outlines is a good basis but I would add another technique. If there are some parts that might be difficult to make a template of - but you basically have the bits (or can make a sensible interpolation to predict any missing fragments) then consider simply reassembling them. The trick here is often to "splint" the repair with a strip of hard balsa glued in alongside with some PVA. Now you can't do this everywhere - put once you start looking you'll be surprised how much of the original structure you can resuse. It will add a bit of weight to that wing - but not so much as it can't be fairly easily rebalanced. Doing this I often find I can "repair" and "reassemble" maybe 50% of the area - saves a lot of trouble.

 

On your general point, my view is small/medium size ARTF's are OK for giving you something to fly on windy days, and for some with very limited time etc they are the only way to go. But for me personally either kits which contain full plans with details of every part or plans, the way to go for my "real" models!

 

BEB

 

[Peter Miller]

Looking at the damage, the only fairly tricky part that I can see is sheeting the curved part of the wing. This is a double or compound curve.

 

I would suggest repairing that  in the following way. Add butt straps under all the existing sheet so that there is a ledge to glue the new wood to. The butt straps should have the grain running across the joint. This gives a joint as strong as the original wood. In passing, it is the same way that we repaired full size aircraft skins.

 

Then you would probably be better off planking with strips about 3/8" wide and the next size thicker wood and sanding the it down to match. This will make the double curvature easy to duplicate.

[Hugh Coleman]

Having now written off two trainers (a Boomerang 40 and a Pheonix Classic 40), I am building a Western 40 Trainer from a kit that my instructor had lying around.

Great experience on many levels. 

I am learning how to build and I am tailoring things like undercaraige (there is the option of Nose Wheel or Tail Dragger in the Kit) and Wing fitment to suit my preferences as I go.

 

The wing is 65" so it's a bit bigger than your average 40 Size Trainer...

 

There have been times during the build when I have looked at the Classic wing sitting in the rack and been tempted to go out and purchase another ARF (I'll have a spare wing at the very least) but I reckon I'll always be better off with the Western.

 

Cheers,

 

Hugh

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Great to hear that you are building from a kit Hugh - I am sure you will really enjoy the build. Sure, it takes a little longer - but the feeling of pride you'll get when it maidens will make the wait seem more than worth while. You will also have the peace of mind of knowing it was properly put together and (not wishing to bring on bad luck or anything) also having built it, if it does get damaged, you know how it goes together. You've built it once, you can repair it, you'll have both the knowledge and the skill.

 

Enjoy!

 

BEB

[Stephen Grigg]

Hi Paul,Ive just repaired a Cap232,I decided it was beyond repair and to many pieces missing.Seagull dont to a spare fuselage or Cowl.The front of the fuselage was broken off from an inch from the cowling forward.Then my mate crashed my Texan.Thefuselage was crushed but the engine mount area the first3 inches of fuselage were OK.After reapairing the Texan,I took the Cap out of the shed,Put the box of bits in front of me and started methodically piecing the bits together.If there was agap I made a part to fill it.The Texan has flown successfully ,the Cap should be ready to fly this weekend.The Cap is different it crashed because it didnt do what I expected it to and I lost control,so not only is it thr rapair is will I be able to fly it and keep control!!!!