I say ban 'em !

[Erfolg]

I am not sure that there is a call to ban turbine powered models.

 

Is not the question with regard to the operation of the model in the video, and is it acceptable in the UK, in a similar setting.

 

I would hope all recognise, that any operator will make mistakes and even the very best equipment will fail. If these scenarios are accepted, what are the minimum requirements for safe operation? I do not think the model and operator appear to achieve and adhere the minimum UK requirements. As an example the apparent height reached.

 

 

[Pete B]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 11/11/2010 14:06:56:

"At no time in this thread has Timbo expressed any suggestion as to the idea that jets should be banned. Where did some folk get that idea?

 

 

 

Hmmmmm, i wonder!!!!

 

 

So do I, Lee, as his posts seem to be consistent with this quote:

 

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 08/11/2010 11:35:57:

No! - the first step was doing it , the next step was publicly displaying it on U tube, all I am doing is opening a debate about it.

As I keep trying to stress, I am not in favour of banning the models, or the flying of them, I just think something needs to be done about this sort of performance in particular, before the heavy hand comes in be that CAA or whatever, and throws the baby out with the bathwater.

 

That seems fairly clear to me

 

Pete

[John Muir]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 11/11/2010 12:12:15:
John I never said you can not have an opinion did I, i just believe you should not be asking to ban anything unless you know fully about what you are trying to ban, please read my response properly mate you can paint me in a bad light otherwise!!!

 Fair enough Lee, but it has been repeatedly stated throughout this thread that the title was just to attract attention and nobody is actually calling for a ban anyway. And if you read my post carefully you'll see that the most I would ask for is some regulation, not a ban.

Also I don't think it is difficult for anyone to understand the basic concepts under discussion. They go like this: fast thing quite dangerous - very, very fast thing more dangerous. I reckon I've got it.

As I say, I'm on the side of some regulation in the same vein as the LMA system for large models. My only problem would be how to define a 'fast' model. Anything capable of 200mph or more? Or would model weight have to be taken into account? How could we know the flying speed of the model before it was flown to the limits of its performance?

And before anyone says it, I know that regulation would not stop some people doing it anyway, that's the way some people are, but it would legitimise the use of these models for those who care and clarify the legal situation should an accident occur. It would also distance the responsible majority from the actions of the irresponsible few.

[Lee Smalley]

Ok but there are call on here to restrict the flying of said models this equates to a ban of sorts and is the thin end of the wedge people fly jets every weekend (weather permitting) on club patches and it no more dangerous than other forms of flying yes they can reach over 200mph but so can a delta with a OPS engine in it, so again where do we stop !

 

if people insist on this road we will be on very dangerous ground where everything we do is subjected to restrictions, the type of flying that is dangerous if that be jet or glider is covered under the ANO as i have said before and we should leave it at that !!  people moan all the time about the fun police (a term i do not like) and then in the same breath they want to restrict this type of flying,  we can't  win !

 

look to finish off as i am quite tired of this now, my last words (please god i hear your mutter)

 

1. the ANO covers all types of reckless behaviour whilst flying our models so we do not need more regulation

 

2. BMFA guidelines recommend only B cert holders for Jets (i think)

 

3. for anyone within this hobby publicly asking to ban or restrict one form of flying or another is just bad form in my opinion

 

4. the CAA should use you tube to prosicute idiots who contravine the ANO

 

5. everone is totally welcome to their opinions and i will fight tooth and nail for your right to have them we just need to be a bit careful how we express them

[Phil Brooks]

Most of us drive cars, some bigger or more powerful than others, and all sensible drivers do not go out deliberately to have a crash. Similarly, most of us on this forum fly models of one type or another, with varying degrees of skill, but all try very hard to avoid accidents. The difference is that all drivers are required by law to  have insurance (and the penalty for not having cover can be severe), and the cost of that insurance varies depending on the size of the car and the experience and previous record of the driver. Model flying, to judge by the cost of premiums and ease of obtaining cover, is regarded as being considerably less risky than driving a car, but of course many of us still have accidents. Even so, it is possible to take out cover very easily, without the insurers asking about size/speed of model or pilots experience, or just to go out and fly without cover, albeit under the risk of civil action for damage caused).  That may not continue to be the case.

 If enough irresponsible people take advantage of the (relatively) falling costs of large and/or fast models, and fly them in a reckless manner, then the authorities WILL start to take notice, and it will be a bit too late for us to start screaming. Perhaps we should pre-empt the ‘elf’n’safety lobby. Perhaps we (or the BMFA to be exact) should be lobbying the government to introduce legislation requiring everyone who flies a powered model plane above a certain weight to take out insurance, with appropriate penalties for not complying. The very act of flying a model uninsured would be an offence, punishable under law.  Perhaps insurers should be more specific on the types and weights of aircraft than can be flown under their policies, with larger/faster, more powerful models attracting higher premiums. It is in our interest to be seen to be sensible and responsible. It won’t stop the idiot who insists on flying the wrong (uninsured) model in the wrong way at the wrong time and place, but it will give the powers that be the ability to deal with him as an individual, whilst the rest of us continue to fly sensibly and legally, no matter how big or fast our planes. The alternative is to find ourselves subject to blanket bans. Lets give ourselves the protection of the law, rather than wait for the law to decide it wants to protect the public from us.

[kiwi g]

Guys . its not about the jets or any other plane !!!!!

its about SAFE FLYING .

To quote the line from the OP again.

 

 

Maybe its just me, but somehow, the type of "performance" seen in this video should be BANNED.

 

The key word here is PERFORMANCE...

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Chris Channon on 11/11/2010 17:41:25:

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 09/11/2010 22:59:03:

Posted by Chris Channon on 09/11/2010 19:05:42:

Blimey, ban them ? i wonder just how many are flying in the UK as we speak?

 

I think Glider D/S should be banned right NOW, imagine a poor bunny popping his head up to see what all the fuss is about then, WHOOSH, one headless bunny, just not fair or British.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

I assume your post was in humour Chris - but please, if not - read the whole OP and subsequent clarifications - I have NOT asked to ban jets.

 

 

Blimey, no i was serious ! i mean how many headless bunnies do we see every day?

 

TEXT DELETED  - CHRIS - MIND YOUR MANNERS PLEASE - PM SENT

 

Chris.

 

 

 

 

 Chris,

 

I can understand where you're coming from on this one - but equally to be fair to Tim I just think he was bit frustrated by that point as the thread had diverted into "Ban Jets" and he had made several attempts to point out that was not what he had said - and so he was a bit "touchy" on the subject by then . I don't think he meant any offence - but I know what its like when you keep saying one thing and it seems that everybody is hearing somthing else! You can lose your sense of perspective (not to mention humour) for a moment.

 

We all make misjudgements from time to time and get things a bit out of focus so c'mon lads kiss and make up.

 

BEB

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 14/11/2010 17:04:53

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Yep, thanks BEB - remember guys, you'll never have the last word.....me? I hid in the bunker the moment I saw the thread title

[Paul Jones 5]

The same can be said about helis or gas engined planes equaly as dangerous in their own rights.

 

I was watching a club member setting up a trex 600 a few month ago and he is what we would all called "an experienced heli pilot" but when he was hovering the heli threw a carbon blade off and before we all new it hit the cabin with grate force and in order for it to do that it had to travel from the runway back through the pits and fellow modelers, how it missed eveyone is a miricle but had it turned for the worse and hit sumone the it would truley have been a visit to the local hospital.

 

 Personaly i dont see the fascination in jets but everybody should be entitled to enjoy their hobby and lets be honest in this hobby it will always continue for people to build bigger faster and more manuverable projects.

[Guest]

I think it's a case of reading into it what one wants to read into it  the word "performance" was stated quite clearly but when the word BANNED was seen The word "performance"

was forgotten, it's a bit like gossip IE did you here about so & so he fell down a hole and broke his leg, a few days later hay did here about so & so he fell off a cliff and broke all his bones.

Some got Some didn't.

 

Talking about power-lines has anyone notice that a few model manufactures when showing there laters model seem to fly near power-lines, Roads, and even House, not a very good example, especially when they advise you not to in there destructions I mean instructions Manuel.

 

Now where did I put my glass's 

Edited By Flyer-Phil on 11/11/2010 23:12:15

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Huggy]

Well, all I'm gonna say is, in this age of litigation and blanket law-making, just one big accident between a fast flying, heavy and fuel-laden jet model and, say, a bus full of kids, and we'll all be looking for another hobby. The powers that be, lawyers, and local government won't differentiate between a 500 gramme foam slow flyer and anything more hairy.  I hope the BMFA and it's insurers find a way of distancing themselves from the more extreme stuff, or ensuring that only qualified pilots can make use of same.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

Although some have tried to link fast flying tuned piped Rossi powered deltas and pylon racers with both respect to speed and mass, with a turbine model, I am not convinced, that there is an equivalence with Jet powered models.

 

The mass of even a Wren turbine i would estimate to be twice that of a 60 glo. Perhaps the most significant difference is the fuel mass of a jet.

 

The most significant difference is the ease that a high speed is achieved with a gas turbine, compared with a glo, also the large space required for opertion.

 

Yet the most important aspect is to fly models in accordance with both regulations and ensuring safe operation. Safe operation in my opinion does not simply mean, being careful, but means that both location and operation of the said model is suitable.

 

I personally like the concept of removing Turbine models into  a separate BMFA insurance category. The category requiring bounding criteria which any sensible person would adhere to with any model with the performance potential of a turbine.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ross Clarkson]

Wow, nice field Pol, careful of the Hos......, i mean Trees!!!

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Ross Clarkson on 12/11/2010 23:20:10:
Wow, nice field Pol, careful of the Hos......, i mean Trees!!!

 

That's where I fly Ross - and yes it is a great field.

The red line shows the position of our strip and the green line is the pits area. As you can see the strip is almost NW-SE and as the prevaling wing here is NW that's pretty handy

 

Flying over the hospital is a very strict no-no!

 

If you look carefully on the left hand side you will see there is lake behind us! And a small river runsdown the left side of the photo in the trees. And the funny mushrooms can be found... err perhaps not!

 

BEB

 

BEB

 

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 12/11/2010 23:55:37

[Ross Clarkson]

Brilliant, lovely site. Mine seems boring compared to that!!!

[Erfolg]

I thought i knew the site of the hospital well. The aerial view shows my orientation was 90 degrees out and I also had the park out of position.

[Bob Moore]

My flying site is in the middle of lovely Devon countryside.  Might hurt a cow or sheep if a model went astray, but not a lot of people.

 

Getting back to dangers and jets, not particulary fast I guess, but this might equally do some damage in the wrong hands as well. Lovely model.

 

Edited By Bob Moore on 13/11/2010 10:45:07

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

What have you done, Bob?

 

There were power lines in the background - the ban 'em brigade are going to have a field day!!!

[Erfolg]

Martin

 

If you really believe your posting, you are missing the various points made by many of the  contributors..

 

I am pretty certain that none have called for a ban either

[Bob Moore]

I noticed the power lines too, but did he fly through them!  (It looked like this was sensibly flown over open ground? Big site)

[Ross Clarkson]

I think Martin was was being comical guys, lets put this one to bed!

Awesome model though, Seen it before but it still amazes me. They should have made it four engined though!!!!! The holes just don't look right.

[Stephen Grigg]

Intersting thread and posts,but noone seems to have stated that the original video is of someone in another country flying an unbelievably fast model very skillfully,and there is nothing we in this country can do about it,apart from admire his skills.we cannot stop putting things like this on You Tube and Im sure we in this country do everything correctly.If some stranger joine your club would you let him just fly it,No.We all have noise restrictions and it would only be allowed to be flown in correctly designated flying fields where the people who have the ability to fly such models would ensure that all aspects were in order before a person was aloud to participate.