Flying on recreation grounds and in other public spaces

[f3ktony]

I have been flying electric r/c models at my local recreation ground since 2002, two days ago I was approached by a parish councillor and told that I could not fly anything from the field. The only notice at the main entrance to the field mentions no dog fouling, no motorcycles and no golf. I asked for a copy of the byelaws which have now been supplied to me - see here - I can fly my pure gliders OK and any model over 7kg

 

There are two other threads regarding byelaws on the forum - here&

here - trawling the Internet I came across this news item - London Standard - I hope that Mr. Antoniou might see this thread and possibly tell us how he got Enfield council to change their byelaws and how he is getting on with the country wide change.

 

I have been in contact with the BMFA, I will also approach one of the parish councillors that I know well to discuss the problem.

 

Have other modellers had problems recently? Has anyone been able to get councils to change their byelaws on model flying?

 

Tony

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 29/06/2011 17:08:38

[Tom Wright 2]

Good research Tony this will be of interest to a lot on here ,perhaps not a good idea to post your e mail address though.

[Tony Read 2]

Best of luck Tony M.

 

My experience of parish councillors cannot be repeated here!

 

I have always thought that the green at Great Bentley would be great for electric flight. However there are likely to be similar restrictions (I might check sometime), as both parishes come under TDC.

[Allan Bowker]

Hi Tony, good luck with your quest, thankfully it hasn't been an issue for myself yet but time will tell.

 

Having read the bye-laws page (LINK) it says:

"...weighs not more than 7 kilograms without its fuel;"

and the "power-driven" definitions are also interesting to read.

 

As I understand it your local bye-law restricts you to flying radio controlled unpowered aircraft (gliders) that are 7kg or less.

 

Perhaps it's time to buy that large scale glider?

 

Personally I would rather see a small foamie aircraft in my public park, rather than a 7kg kinetic killer.

 

Of course the danger here is that the bye-law will be updated to exclude all aircraft or gliders over 500g, I hope that the BMFA will lobby your council appropriately.

Not to mention our responsibilities to comply with the CAA Air Navigation Order (ANO)

 

 

 

 

Edited By Allan Bowker on 29/06/2011 16:01:52

[James M]

Hi

 

Have been looking further down the list and there is a fly in to ointment

 

Remote Controlled Operated Model Vehicles

34. No person shall use a remote controlled operated model vehicle without prior written consent of the parish council.

 

That means even if you are OK for weight, power etc you still need there consent before you can proceed - they have that loop hole covered as well!

[Tim Mackey]

Tony please read this too

[f3ktony]

Sorry Tim, I do know better, I was just lazy. Is there a way I can edit my posts like on other forums I use?

[Tim Mackey]

Editing is both time limited, and prevented once another post has been made.

I'll do it this time - but only cos I'm in a fairly good mood LOL

[Allan Bowker]

Good point James, I had missed that.

I do note that the term "vehicle" has not been defined.
Perhaps it could be argued (in the short term at least) that an aircraft is correctly classified as a 'craft' rather than a 'vehicle' and thus the bye-law needs to define the term 'vehicle' more clearly.

A quick check of legal terms concurs with my thoughts.

[f3ktony]

Thanks Tim.

 

Tom - I'm splattered all over the 'net, finding me is not difficult. I use an image of my email address so the spambots can't trawl it off the page. I'm hoping the Mr. Antoniou will contact me too.

 

Tony - you'd have thought Bentley Green was big enough for any and all types of activities to take place at the same time! Gt. Bentley Parish Council - no link to their byelaws but an email to the clerk for them would no doubt work. No need to tell them why you want them.

 

Allan I found this after more searching - BMFA minutes Jan. '07 - which mentions the 500g limit on page 25. I've not found out yet if this is law or where it stands at the moment.

 

James - I think as they define a model aircraft, the vehicle bit is for land based vehicles.

[Ben B]

The electric motor clause is usually a modern addition to the existing bye-laws but such a change would require a consultation process (which happened in December 2010 at our patch). A FOI request to the council will rapidly discover when such a clause was added and what consultation process occured.

Edited By Ben B on 29/06/2011 17:54:08

[Ben B]

2.1 As a general principle, it is for a local authority to decide the necessary and
appropriate byelaws for its area. However, local authorities are expected to consult any
interested parties and consider their views before making and advertising byelaws.

2.2 Some groups of people may have a legal right to be consulted, particularly if they
have what the law calls “a legitimate expectation” to be consulted. For example, a
group of people that currently undertake a lawful activity which might be forbidden by a
new byelaw could, in the view of the Courts, have a legitimate expectation to be
consulted on the proposed change in policy before it was confirmed.

2.3 DCLG recommends that it is appropriate to have a two-stage process on
assessment and consultation which local authorities should follow before adopting
byelaws. The first stage would require a local authority to determine whether a byelaw
is the most appropriate way of addressing the perceived problem. DCLG considers it
essential that a local authority should adopt a rigorous assessment of the need and
fitness for purpose of a proposed byelaw.

[f3ktony]

Councils are using this document dated 2005 that they will then cut about to suit their requirements (from the Communities & Local Government web site.

 

Lawford Council's minutes for their meeting in May 2009 has this entry - 'The byelaw advert had appeared in the local press and will run for 1 month, if no comments are received it is hoped they will come into force.' Unfortunately I didn't see the notice so the byelaws probably went through without any comment from anyone. The byelaws were signed by the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the council on 8th July 2009 and by P. Rowsell, Senior Civil Servant, DCLA on 28th July 2009.

 

As far as I'm aware no complaints have been made to the council regarding model aircraft being flown on the Lawford recreation ground. This is something I will try to find out. If a complaint had been made I would like to think that I would have been informed, at least one councillor knows I fly models there as he walks his dog on the field and we have spoken while I was flying.

 

Ben - where does the the info. in your second post come from?

Edited By Tony Merritt on 29/06/2011 18:52:12

[Ben B]

link!

of course you could say that they should put up signs to alert the users of the recreation park of the intended change in byelaws. Why is the local press the right place to put an "advert" to warn people of their intentions. But if they can show they can meet the bare minimum then there's not much you can do about it I suppose.....

apart from flying 5.9kg free flight petrol powered models just to show how farcicle the laws are!

[Peter Antonio]

Hi Guys,

Although Enfield bye-laws have now been amended, thanks to the publicity it generated, Radio, local and national news papers, twitter and so on…..>>

I have started a petition and need every- bodies help if we are to further our horizon. I intend to change the byelaws regarding the use of radio controlled deices all over the Uk that unfairly restricts this hobby to be enjoyed by our fellow hobbyist in our local areas and parks/ fields…. PLEASE VISIT MY YOU TUBE SITE: …mrspeedy01 ….AND GIVE A THUMBS UP AND YOUR COMMENTS, as I will need this to help to change an out of dated bye-law that has no real place in today’s society or evidence to prove it is any more dangerous than any other activity that is today allowed in our parks and recreational areas.

> >

Peter Antonio

[Tim Mackey]

Your post would have had more effect if it had correctly linked to the "video" concerned

[Tim Mackey]

Incidentally, despite being a keen aeromodeller myself, I cant support your petition - I actually think the type of model suited to flying in a public area like a park, is severely limited.

I personally wouldnt fly anything other than small foamy things, and in truth, I have stopped flying anything in my local public park, preferring intead to make the 30 mile round trip to my proper , dedicated, paid for, club site.

[Cyclicscooby]

A brilliant post... Well done.. Not just for the protest, but for making me, and i'm sure many others, even aware of the situation...

 

Just before everyone jumps on the 'join a club' wagon, I would just like to point out that there must be thousands of young teenagers who get a park flyer as a present, and take it to a local park.. I'm not suggesting recklessness, or flying around peoples heads, but surely you can't expect them join a club, at considerable cost, to just 'try' their new toy / aircraft.

 

I'm not anti-club or anything, just putting iit nto perspective...

 

 

Luv

Chrisie... xx

 

 

[Simon B]

I have mixed feelings. Small foamies are one thing, T-Rex Helis are quite another. The rotor speed is insane and the blades are carbon or wood. If you crash and one snaps off that's going a fair speed when it spliters. Also people have been killed by model planes before, so if you really are going to fly in a public area consider what it is. I learnt to fly on a public common, but it was a Hobbyzone supercub, which goes about 15mph (at a guess) and weighs very little. I'd not take a 480 sized balsa and ply model on the same field though, as the energy it'd have would be a lot higher.

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 08/07/2011 16:13:42

[Romeo Whisky]

There are entire clubs (electric only and with weight restrictions) that fly from such sites with the full blessing of the Local Council. One such is the SSA in Sheffield who were first given permission to fly there during the foot-&-mouth outbreak, as prior to that they were mainly a slope-flying club. Now they have a formal licence agreement with the Sheffield City Council. Their web-site is down at present  but they are a BMFA Registered Club.

Edited By Romeo Whisky on 08/07/2011 16:08:37

[Tim Mackey]

Indeed, but having a club based at an approved - albeit public park - site is a different matter to a solo flyer just turning up and flying something on his own. For starters, whose to say he has insurance?

The other point is as Simon says, there are suitable models for this sort of location, and then there are unsuitable ones. Frankly, I find some of the models sold and described as "park fly" completely unsuitable. I venture this trend has been propagated via the US and other places, where the term "park" probably means a HUGE open space.

The final decision as to whether somewhere is suitable should rest with a responsible flyer....unfortunately the two terms dont always go together

[Peter Antonio]

wow... I'm surprised that most would rather stay confined within a boring marked out area.>>

I've been to flying clubs and to be honest i find them over populated and dangerous, people take off and land at the same time, and once in the air your forever dodging other peoples aircraft, so what's safe about that.>>

In my opinion the council’s bye-laws and RC clubs have created unsafe environments and a deserter in the making. That’s why I fly in my Local Park or field, it’s just a more relaxed safer environment and the park users have never complained and they seem to enjoy watching model aircraft flying its great fun.

What about the disabled people that love this hobby and can’t travel to clubs, for instance a friend of mine who is disabled lives only two minutes from his local park and has enjoyed flying his heli there for years… should he stop flying ? He wouldn’t be able to travel to an RC club he would have to give up the only hobby he truly loves,… is that fair, don’t think so.>>

Edited By Peter Antonio on 09/07/2011 00:17:28

[Peter Antonio]

Just a few Park Activities law permits that are dangerous:

You’re allowed to ride bikes; speed restrictions are implemented, but I’ve seen bikers reach speeds of 30mph which could kill or injure a fellow park user. >>

 You’re allowed to play cricket, which uses a ball that weighs approx 160g and can travel at speeds of 100 to 150mph, I’m sure if that was to hit someone on the head that would kill them outright.

You’re allowed to throw a Frisbee most are made of a hard polyethylene some a light alloy which can reach speeds of 30/ 90mph, which could kill or injure someone severely.>>

You’re allowed to fly a kite, although sizes vary; an average size kite can come down so fast I’ve seen them smash car windscreens, and could easy go through flesh coursing serious injury or death.>>

Dogs seem to have more priorities then humans these days, and are allowed to roam our parks quite freely with without any restriction. Owners are not monitored to asses weather they are responsible owners or not. >>

To fly larger model aircraft takes thousands of hours of practice, lots of money and a huge amount of time devoted to rebuilding (a crash could cost approx £50/£500,that’s why most newbie’s introduced to this every growing hobby will lose interest&

Edited By Peter Antonio on 09/07/2011 00:18:57

[Peter Antonio]

Most model RC users have learnt to fly their aircraft over many years and have invested heavily into their hobby. Most model RC users are usually older responsible, people who understand being reckless and crashing is not an option because of the heavy financial cost of repairs not to mention their aircraft being grounded for weeks, maybe months; So RC users would always be careful and responsible whilst flying.>>

Finally I would like to mention, although I believe the byelaws for pleasure grounds, public walks and open spaces should permit Model radio control aircraft or cars to be used in our parks, I also believe that no petrol, nitro, gas or solid fuel should be.>>

Edited By Peter Antonio on 09/07/2011 00:19:59

[Wiltshire Flyer]

I would not fly anything other than my Microstik in a public park, too much to go wrong.