Phoenix or real flight sim

[Steve W-O]

OK Ian, let's take it from where you are.

 

The wot4foame is a very easy plane to fly, but I don't think it is ideal for an absolute beginner, the main reason being that as it has no dihedral it will not level itself, you have to fly it all the way.

 

But here is where the sim can be useful, to be able to fly the plane comfortably, you must have the control directions completely instinctive, so you can practice that on the sim without the plane having to be 100% true to life.

 

I would suggest setting the site to "flying field", set the plane to Multiplex Mentor (it is much closer to the wot4foame then the wot4 is on phoenix) and practice flying down the runway, turning away from you at the end, then turn the opposite way fo fly down the runway the other way. Add in some figure of 8s, crossing over in line with the trees in front of you near the boundary.

 

Don't bother to land it, and best not to go over 15 minutes per session. Three sessions a day for a week would normally (normal is the wrong word, as it is not abnormal to need much more, as driving a car, some people get it in a few lessons, some are still trying after a few years, just we are all different) have the directions fairly instinctive.

 

It can be quite boring, but it is worth it, as the wrong input 10' off the ground on the real model spells disaster.

 

I will try this week to set up the wot4 on Phoenix to be closer to the wot4foame, I think I deleted the copy, and anyway I can't remember what I changed.

 

 

What are your control throws set to, and have you got expo on your transmitter?

[Steve W-O]

Had a quick go, and it is much closer.

 

Make a copy of the wot 4 and then edit it.

 

Change the wing section to funfly

make the wing incidence 3deg (remember to do the tip as well as the root)

reduce the weight to 1.5kg

leave the size the same

make the fin and tailplane flat section

make the tailplane incidence -2 deg

increase the frontal area to .08

 

Make sure it is trimmed properly as you would the real model

 

most important, change the motor to electric so that it sounds right!

Edited By Steve W-O on 29/01/2012 07:10:07

[Steve W-O]

I just changed the main wing incidence to 2deg, and the roll inertia to .11

 

Forgot to say before to set the dihedral to 0

[Rusty C]

Just been looking at real flight basic, nice price wonder if its any good tho?

I am looking for a sim and was set on phoenix but slough rc dont have it or G5.5

I would normally go to wheelspin but they have been mucking me around a bit to often now!

Any other online stores??

 

Rusty

[IanR]

Steve, thanks a lot mate!

 

I'll definitely give it a try and see how I get on.

 

Regards

Ian

[IanR]

Steve - I've done as you suggested and, from what little of my experience flying the actual model I can remember, would say the following:

 

Airfoil - staring hard at the end of the wing makes me think that it is not fully symetrical per Phoenix's Funfly airfoil. I would say that it was one of the NACAs either 2213, 2415 or 2314, at least as far as the profiles in Phoenix go. Using Phoenix, I couldn't detect any differance but eventually thought, "NACAs", and went for 2314.

What was very discernible was the differance between the 3 x NACAs, and the Funfly airfoil. I tested them by zeroing my transmitter's elevator trim, applying full throttle and then allowing the plane to take off "hands off". With the funfly airfoil, the plane would not take off, it just rolled along the ground at great speed, irrespective of wing incidence setting. With the 3 NACAs, the plane would rise, zoom and then loop.

 

Wing incidence - with NACA2314, the wing incidence does need to be positive but as opposed to 2, I have set it to 1.75. At this it is very similar to the way I remember ie at full throttle the plane will zoom like the clappers. It needs 7 or 8 clicks of down trim to achieve level flight at full throttle. Or, as my instructor did for my early flights, 2 or 3 clicks of down trim and throttle well back. At this, I rember trying to do a loop and my foamie Wot struggled like crazy to perform a tiny loop and only just made it over the top. Phoenix emulates this very realistically, indeed.

 

Tailplane incidence - a minus figure makes the plane zoom like crazy. I have left this at pre-set 1.0

 

Dihedral - setting this to zero does indeed seem to add to the realism when banking and turning etc etc. However, perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember that my actual Foamie Wot did want to straighten itself out when I was "hands off". In Phoenix there is no self-righting at all with zero dihedral. I agree, though, that the actual wing is as flat as a pancake. When I eventually trash the Wotty, if the wing is still OK I may use it as a building board.

 

Frontal drag area - increasing this just seems to have the same affect as decreasing thrust. The plane is nowhere near as lively. In reality, I do remember that the Wotty is a wick little beggar and has quite a turn of speed at full chat. I have left this at the pre-set 0.41.

 

Roll inertia - changed to .11 - yes, better but I can't put my finger on why so.

 

Weight reduction - done. A big inrease in reality levels. Flies more or less the same but has become more floaty, somehow. I believe that this has cropped up elsewhere on the Forum in discussions concerning the Foam Wot 4-E and the heavier Balsa Wot-4E ARTF. Well done Phoenix!

 

Fin/Tail flat section - can't discern any differance, but, done.

 

Noise - yes, electric (I can hear the majority of forumites spitting, just now)

 

That's it, Steve. And YES - much better. I've had quite a productive wet Sunday afternoon, even if it has been a bit nerdy/anorakish - but then its all part of the learning process and I've enjoyed finding how these various parameters affect flight performance.

 

Regards

Ian

 

 

 

[Steve W-O]

Very interesting Ian.

 

There seems to be quite a big difference between your plane and mine.

 

 

Mine is just about neutral trim, and it makes very little difference what the throttle setting is. Mine does float a bit too, but not as much as it does on Phoenix

 

Increasing the frontal area will do the same as decreasing the power, when the power is on, but it is the no power situation that it adjusts for me, ie how much it slows down with no throttle. The plane slows down quite quickly at first, then once it is going slowly, it doesn't slow down so quickly, which is one reason why I chose the funfly section, as it is closer to the thickness ratio, and more draggy.

 

Anyway, glad you have manage to tune it to be more like your model, though I am a bit surprised at the difference in the actual models.

[IanR]

Steve,

 

I would bow to your greater experience - seriously. My findings are based upon only a teensy, weensy bit of actual flying and I listed them above only for interest's sake.

 

However, now that I've made my mind up to get out and fly and stop relying on Phoenix to get me over the jitters I'm suffering from, I may yet get back to you to argue the toss!

 

I have just posted a question on "In The Air" (so as not to create crossed threads) about the neutral trim/throttle setting thing.

 

Regards

Ian

[Steve W-O]

Posted by IanR on 29/01/2012 17:36:07:

Steve,

 

I would bow to your greater experience - seriously. My findings are based upon only a teensy, weensy bit of actual flying and I listed them above only for interest's sake.

 

However, now that I've made my mind up to get out and fly and stop relying on Phoenix to get me over the jitters I'm suffering from, I may yet get back to you to argue the toss!

 

I have just posted a question on "In The Air" (so as not to create crossed threads) about the neutral trim/throttle setting thing.

 

Regards

Ian

 

 

Ian, i was in no way saying I had any better ideas!!!

 

I found your comments interesting and will try the settings you had, the only thing I thought about was the way your plane behaves when opening the throttle, as it is quite different to mine.

 

If I don't give up elevator on mine, it would just hop along the ground until something bad happened (our field is very uneven)

 

 

Is it possible the ground has attacked your plane and distorted the motor mounting? If the motor was pointing up too much, it could explain the behaviour. Does it need down trim to fly level when the motor is off? If it is badly out of trim on low throttle, or there is a big difference it trim with throttle, it could explain why it is not doing as well as it could.

[IanR]

Steve, no, I was saying you had better ideas.

 

The ground attack scenario is definitely possible. All three of my "incidents" involved the undercarriage catching the heather/bushes/growth surrounding the patch and then rapidly nosing downwards until the prop hit the ground. Just the thing to bang the motor assy in an upwards direction.

 

There is no way my Foamie Wot would just run along the ground.

 

I'll eventually get back to you with a report which will either give you my impressions on flying a Foamie Wot or let you know which train set I've just bought.

 

Regards

Ian

[avtur]

Went out yesterday and bought myself Phoenix v3 and a DX6i from Steve Webb Models. I'm returning after a significant break and I'm changing from mode 1 to mode 2, so looking to use the sim to help get my right thumb used to doing most of the work. First impression of Phoenix is good, I bought it base on opinions here and quick trial in store. Decided to get DX6i to future proof myself (to some extent) .

In the first instance having more problem programming the Tx than flying! Is it just me or are the Tx instructions a bit lacking?

[Paul Marsh]

I use an old Futaba Skysport 6A, as It might as well get used. I don't have Phoenix, as my internet is so slow and not reliable, it would keep dropping out. Aerofly seems ok.

[avtur]

I've got Phoenix loaded on a laptop, don't have a desktop PC in the house (I'm a Mac person) the laptop runs through a 23" monitor from its docking station and it looks quite good on there. This evening I thought I'd have a play at connecting the laptop to the TV, only a 32" but it certainly looked good on that, also meant I could fly from the settee! Then I went one step further, I have a digital projector (for use at work) so I hooked that up, that was really good on a 60"+ diagonal image ....

[John Sheehy]

Obviously BEB has hit the nail on the head and I'm sure you will take his advice. However considering that you are willing to spend £150 odd for what you think may be a slightly more realistic Flight sim, might I suggest a three channel trainer?

In the days before Flight sims they used to be the first trainer most people started with. Back in those days I learnt solo and felt the same terrors you describe. A three channel trainer will stay level once you are in the air and self level after every turn. This will build your confidence to a point where you won't be in such a lather when you take off that you're not operating as well as you could.

I remember sitting with my plane for half an hour just trying to calm myself and work up the courage to take off. Without those jitters you'll find a greater ability and I believe in your situation three channels is the best way to get there.

I wish you the best of luck with your new hobby.

John.