Flying inverted?

[David Bess]

Had my Phoenix a couple of weeks now and loving it , great fun streamer cutting with 3 opponents really crazy ,I always get a good score not too sure that it tells the truth though as I always win best score is 1500 , anyway what I really want to know is how do I get my plane to fly inverted ???????? inverting is easy but keeping it inverted in level flight I just can't do ,it always crashes

[John Privett]

Sounds like you need some (a lot?) more practice!

Once you're inverted you'll usually need to maintain some forward pressure on the elevator to keep the nose up. How much depends on the model. Once inverted just use the ailerons in exactly the same way you would when the right way up but remember to use the elevator in the opposite way to normal.

Is there a standard pattern to your crashes whilst inverted? Can you fly inverted for a while, but then 'lose it'? Keep practicing!

[David Bess]

Well yes I certainly do need more practise advice is what I expected about how to do it , the pattern is nose in the dirt , and no it's pretty quick from inverting to hitting the dirt , I can do an invert dive and swing out to climb before I hit the ground , I think it must be elevator control in reverse that is my problem , Thanks fore the help John , I will just keep practising

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by David Bess on 17/04/2012 01:12:23:

what I really want to know is how do I get my plane to fly inverted ???????? inverting is easy but keeping it inverted in level flight I just can't do ,it always crashes

Have you tried turning the monitor upside down?

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Martin Harris on 17/04/2012 13:19:20:

Posted by David Bess on 17/04/2012 01:12:23:

what I really want to know is how do I get my plane to fly inverted ???????? inverting is easy but keeping it inverted in level flight I just can't do ,it always crashes

Have you tried turning the monitor upside down?

I use the projector onto a wall, I'm a little bit worried that if I turn the wall upside down the council will tell me to apply for planning permission.

There are some planes in Phoenix that are almost impossible to fly upside down, the Wot4 for example, although the real one is easy.

try these things with the Capiche 140, nice and big and easy to see, and goes exactly where you point it, almost to easy.

Be high enough that if you give it full up or down, it will loop or bunt before it meets the ground.

[Cyclicscooby]

LOL... And once you've mastered that, you just need to stand on your head at the field..

Just get height and practice... If it looks like it's getting out of shape, quickly roll it back the right way up, sort it out and go round again..

Try a slow roll first, as this will be inverted for a short time.. If it keeps nosing down, then you need more down elev (stick up)...

Practise practise practise, is all I can suggest... The sim worked wonders for my Heli training..

Luv

Chrisie.. xx

[Steve Houghton 1]

I never had any problem flying the Wotty inverted, found it as easy as the real thing, but as with most aspects of flying, somethings we find easier to master than others.

I've been trying to learn to do 4 point rolls. I can do them, albeit very untidily on Phoenix, but can I do them for real? Not a chance! I can do the first 2 quarters but it always goes bottoms up at the 3rd quarter stage. I'll get there eventually but it's going to take a lot more practice, and even more so because I do it with gliders so don't have the luxury of a powerplant up front, although usually I do have a lot of free air below the plane as a cushion for when it goes wrong.

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Steve Houghton 1 on 17/04/2012 14:31:09:

I never had any problem flying the Wotty inverted, found it as easy as the real thing, but as with most aspects of flying, somethings we find easier to master than others.

I've been trying to learn to do 4 point rolls. I can do them, albeit very untidily on Phoenix, but can I do them for real? Not a chance! I can do the first 2 quarters but it always goes bottoms up at the 3rd quarter stage. I'll get there eventually but it's going to take a lot more practice, and even more so because I do it with gliders so don't have the luxury of a powerplant up front, although usually I do have a lot of free air below the plane as a cushion for when it goes wrong.

We found that the wot4 on phoenix had the wrong wing section, and severatl other factors that made it hard, once it was edited it was OK, can't remember the details, but the discussion was on here.

The Capiche 140 is a total piece of cake to fly on Phoenix, if the real one flew like that, I would bu one tomorow! I don't think anyone could crash it.

If the real one flew like the Phoenix one, I could pass the C cert tomorrow, but oon the other hand, it is great for learning things on, like inverted flight, knife edge, roling circles etc

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I remember that discussion Steve!

Basically anything with a flat bottomed wing section and dihedral is not going the behave very well inverted.

The flat bottomed section produces much less lift inverted for the same AoA - so you need a lot of "down-elevator" - ie "push" to push the nose up.

Second the whole point of dihedral is to make the model very stable - the right way up. A natural follow-on from this is that its very unstable the wrong way up. So trying to fly a model with lots of dihedral inverted is like trying to stand up in a hammock - it can be done but it needs practice!

The WOT4 in Phoenix has an incorrect flat bottomed wing section and I think dihedral. Remove them - in particular replace the wing section with something semi-symmetrical - and it will fly much more like a real WOT4.

Aerobatic models - like the Capice, the Extra, Pitts etc. - have symmetrical wing profiles and no dihedral. Result they fly pretty well the same either way up.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/04/2012 15:34:50

[Handyman]

Hi, if you will take some advice from a wrinkly old flyer regarding inverted flying, I was taught quite a few years ago to place my thumb underneath the elevator stick when flying upside down and to keep saying to myself," push the stick upwards to raise the nose and to relax the pressure to descend inverted".

At the same time i was also taught that when flying towards myself, when the aileron controls seem to be reversed, to say to myself," push the aileron stick towards the wing that is dropping to lift the wing up".

Does this make any sense to all you other old wrinklies on this forum?

[Handyman]

P.s. I have had no trouble flying the Wot 4 inverted even with the wong wing section using the method I have suggested. I rest my case. Let me know if this helps.

[Olly P]

I have been told the aileron one, but haven't tried inverted flying yet.....

[Handyman]

Hi Olly P. I am 71 years old now, but I can still remember my first attempts at flying inverted. In a word,"Dismal". It was only through the coaching by another good flyer that it became second nature to me.

He taught me to enter inverted flying from a half loop and to make sure that I had plenty of height to be able to recover easily if I made a "boo,boo"!. Even after all these years I still say the same old mantra to myself. Push up with my thumb at the bottom of the elevator stick and pick up the dropping wing by pushing the aileron stick towards the dropping wing.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Generally speaking inverted flying isn't difficult - its a knack. Once you can get from one end of the field to the other inverted - try flying inverted circuits! But remember when you come to turn whilst inverted, its aileron to bank as usual but then PUSH. Don't pull!

I found that once you could fly inverted circuits, and so turn inverted, the whole "reversed elevator" thing became much easier and more natural.

Personally I don't teach folks to enter inverted via a half loop - and there is a very good reason for that. If they enter via a half loop, then when/if it all goes wrong whilst inverted, they may be very tempted to try to exit via a half loop, and 9 times out of 10, that will end in tears.

Far better in my view to enter via a half roll then simply add to the "PUSH, PUSH, PUSH" mantra with a new one:

"If in doubt - half roll out"

Try to avoid "pulling" into a half loop out - at least until you are really confident and you're exiting inverted because you want to, not because you have lost control.

Another reason I've found why its better to teach people to "roll-in, roll-out" is; if they lose control whilst inverted and the model half rolls itself - very common - then using the elevator in this sort of unintentional "knife edge" position really disorientates most learners and if, as a result of applying the elevator, the model comes towards them, they invariably panic! In my experience far better to stick with the ailerons - beginners find them much more predictable and they are far less likley to get into trouble.

BEB

[Rusty C]

Posted by Handyman on 17/04/2012 15:43:29:

Hi, if you will take some advice from a wrinkly old flyer regarding inverted flying, I was taught quite a few years ago to place my thumb underneath the elevator stick when flying upside down and to keep saying to myself," push the stick upwards to raise the nose and to relax the pressure to descend inverted".

At the same time i was also taught that when flying towards myself, when the aileron controls seem to be reversed, to say to myself," push the aileron stick towards the wing that is dropping to lift the wing up".

Does this make any sense to all you other old wrinklies on this forum?

Yes handyman I was told about the "prop up" method. It works well, I also find trying to put yourself in the cockpit works too.

As for the wot on phoenix its pretty awful as standard and its pretty obvious also, I have never seen a wotty with a flat btm wing lol. The thread regarding this issue is great so just followed this, Big difference

Rusty

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/04/2012 17:12:13:

Generally speaking inverted flying isn't difficult - its a knack. Once you can get from one end of the field to the other inverted - try flying inverted circuits! But remember when you come to turn whilst inverted, its aileron to bank as usual but then PUSH. Don't pull!

I found that once you could fly inverted circuits, and so turn inverted, the whole "reversed elevator" thing became much easier and more natural.

Personally I don't teach folks to enter inverted via a half loop - and there is a very good reason for that. If they enter via a half loop, then when/if it all goes wrong whilst inverted, they may be very tempted to try to exit via a half loop, and 9 times out of 10, that will end in tears.

Far better in my view to enter via a half roll then simply add to the "PUSH, PUSH, PUSH" mantra with a new one:

"If in doubt - half roll out"

Try to avoid "pulling" into a half loop out - at least until you are really confident and you're exiting inverted because you want to, not because you have lost control.

Another reason I've found why its better to teach people to "roll-in, roll-out" is; if they lose control whilst inverted and the model half rolls itself - very common - then using the elevator in this sort of unintentional "knife edge" position really disorientates most learners and if, as a result of applying the elevator, the model comes towards them, they invariably panic! In my experience far better to stick with the ailerons - beginners find them much more predictable and they are far less likley to get into trouble.

BEB

I got taught this method by the "old wrinkles" in the club. Half loop into inverted and always roll-out. Also when starting out, have plenty of height, so when you do the enventiable and push the wrong way, you can outside loop and not hit the ground. My first WOT4 foam-e was killed by pushing the wrong way at too low a height!

Infact I broke off my repaired second Foam-e nose at the weekend practicing low-level inverted circuits. A gust of breeze messed me up and I pushed the wrong way!

To stay inverted, I found after pulling the stick to loop, when half way, release that pressure and then remember to just push the opposite way that you have just been pushing. After mastering straight line inverted, I got told to practice doing inverted circuits. Doing them makes you feel like a wobbly beginner again!

Si.

[David Bess]

Thanks all for the help ,I was beginning to think Martin had the solution turn the screen upside down but the prob seems to have been my choice of model ,The Spit was hopeless ,as were the other war birds and the wat 4 was useless at it too but the Beaver doe's it just fine from a half loop and push elevator stick up ,I still crash but I get level inverted flight for a short distance until I mess up with the ailerons but at least I will get it now with practise Thanks all for the humour and practical both were needed ,