Martin Harris - Moderator Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Gentlemen of the Moderating Persuasion I'm a little confused over some of the forum guidelines and their effect on members' status. I believe that a prolific contributor has been banned recently due to (or stemming from) the posting of a publicly viewable link to a model importer's site which he had had close ties to in the past but is no longer actively involved with. While there may be other issues I'm unaware of, it seems odd that I've just been viewing a thread created by the proprieter of and publicising of a model manufacturing venture. I'd like to make it clear that I have NO objection at all to this interesting thread and I see that two mods have already posted in it. The crux of this matter is just what is acceptable to link to - I seem to recall many instances of people finding offers etc. and posting them for general information without attracting comment. Edited By Martin Harris on 16/10/2012 13:06:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Thats a very interesting point you raise there Martin sounds as if someone may have been treated unfairly,I do hope not,I cant do links so Im probably safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly P Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I also know the individual of whom you speak Martin. I have heard one side of the story, but am always keen to hear the other.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 spill the beans? ...... ken anderson ne..1 in the dark dept.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Wright 2 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I think there is a subtle but easily identifiable difference between a blatant commercial advertisement and a link to a sellers site to hep a forum member identify a suitable component. But obviously if links to a commercial site are posted in proliferation on a regular basis then that would surly raise suspicions in the mod department . Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Very interesting point. In the "rules" it says, you will not: Upload, post or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, or any other form of solicitation. A certain recent thread about a new business (although very interesting) could be considered by some people as a type of advertising and some other companies have to pay for adverts on this website. But then other members very often post links to products all over the internet in order to help other members find parts / services they are looking for... I guess it depends on who posts the link and if they "work" for or are promoting their own company or not. In either case the "rules" should be applied fairly and equally to all members! .... can of worms is open... Edited By WolstonFlyer on 16/10/2012 15:36:28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 First.... be good to clarify this... I've posted a fair few links to bits used in builds esc. What's acceptable? What's not? I noticed the thread mentioned by Wolston Flyer and wondered.... I also noticed another thread about YT's clear out sale the other day. Is my enthusiasm for HobbyKing retracts OK or might I find myself banned if I post another eulogy? And second... It will be a shame if you ban members who know their stuff... I apreciate this as a forum that is well moderated, and I appreciate that it's a tricky balancing act. A well run forum becomes a community, and members of a community might well want to point one another the bargains, or useful products from time to time. Few would want a forum like this spoiled by spam adverts. But then if forum members are known to be associated with companies their input can be essential to the value of the forum as they provide knowledge and experience about their products that attract 'forumites.' As a 'forumite' I am a case in point. This is the main forum I hang out on, but I'm building a Royal Zero at the moment. I havn't discussed it here, because this is not where the people who know about Royal/Marutaka kits tend to hang out. That happens in a 'another place!' I don't know all the circumstances and appreciate what the mods do, so this is certainly not a rant; more a reflection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Smalley Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 i think the difference is if you still have a close and personal interest in that business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hi All, first of all let me say that as mods we do not discuss individual cases in public. I am sure that if anyone of you had a "difference" with us as a moderator team you would not want us to reveal all the content of a private conversation. I can say this much - no one has been banned from this forum during the time I have been a moderator simply for posting a link to a commercial site, and that was not the case in this instance. There is considerably more to this than that. Now, several ask a perfectly reasonable question - "what can I and what can't I post of a commercial nature?" Well first of all if you are not involved in commercial activity in the model world then this isn't really an issue you need to worry about. If you answer a question like "Where can I get an X" by saying "you can get them here..." that great. You are helping people. If you are very pleased with a particular product or trader - then great, we want to hear about it. If you find out that dealer Y has a special offer on batteries or whatever - great, tell us. The problems start when folks have a "vested interest". We don't want forum members bombared with "sales pitches" and we don't want people given what looks like impartial advice but is really coloured by a particular commercial bias. We want fair, disinterested (in the commercial sense) honest, even handed advice handed out. Advice that is based on experience. Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone in the modelling industry is going to do that sort of thing - but we do need to protect against it happening. So, where someone does have a clear commercial link we ask that they disclose that in their user name - so everyone knows. We don't want to lose such members - far from it they can be an invaluable source of information. But such members do have to exercise common sense between giving general advice as a forum member - and making a sales pitch abaout a specific product or business. The vast majority of such members manage this just fine and are very careful to advise without seeking unfair advantage. So 99.99% of the time it works dandy. Now and then one oversteps the mark. If they do, we point it out to them. If they take the hint - no problem, if not we part company. But that will not have been simply for posting a link on one occassion - we are not unreasonable people! It will have been for persistantly deliberately misusing their access to this forum. As I say, its a common sense issue and most people have no problem with it. One more thing. If a new person joins or if someone starts a new business venture - we would generally have no problem with a single thread just letting people know - that's fine. As long as the promo stops there and doesn't become at every possible opportunity "buy X from me". Now, to close as I began. This was not the issue over which a recent exclusion took place - whatever you may have been told to the contrary. The above on commercial promotion is only included as an answer to your questions about what the mods actions are likely to be in that area. Remember, its our job to keep this forum a fair, transparent and accurate source of impartial advice. The decision to ban someone is never taken lightly and these days is always discussed between the mods before the action is taken. Also, except in the most serious cases, banning only follows a series of warnings and possibly a period of suspension, giving any member effected a chance to modify their behaviour, so generally it shouldn't come as a great surprise to the individual concerned! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 BEB- your statement seems very fair. I think transparency is key- if someone has a vested interested they should say straight from the beginning and make it obvious in their username. Otherwise the whole forum loses credibility. I would also like to say how wonderful it is to see disinterested being used properly. I get well and truly wound up when people say disinterested when they actually mean uninterested but think it sounds better..... Grrrrrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Thanks BEB. Martin, I've changed the thread title to better reflect your OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 David, I don't want, and have no expectation that you or the other mods will discuss the particular case in any detail on the forum. I'd just like to say that I don't know the banned member personally but from limited conversations I've gained the impression that he meant no harm while posting what he felt would be a link that was interesting to other forum members. I do understand that the forum needs to be seen to be impartial and fair to the magazine's commercial advertisers but he made no secret of his previous association with the importer linked to. I do feel that the poster has made a great number of useful contributions and helped many people in the past and I'd like to think that a dialogue could be established to resolve the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garbo Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I like to see postings to links to new and interesting items, as I find it impossible to keep across every retailers new realeses. In fact I like to see more for example it was nice to see YT post their summer clearence, and if Sussex had a clear out I would like someone to give us the heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ady Hayward Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 So, if you are not employed by the company, but are really enthusiastic about their products is that advertising on their behalf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouncebounce crunch Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I don't know who or whom is involved but I reckon that their business should have given a few goodies (not expensive ones) wheels, a pilot or two, a couple of props etc as giveaways for This website, that way he would have got a lot more tongues wagging and all for the better. word of mouth is the best advertising method of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chambers Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 5 minutes of detective work and I've figured out who it is. Don't know the guy personally, but its always sad when someone who contributed a lot no longer can. I don't know though, or even really care what the reason for the ban tbh. However I do believe it would have been better to see that the user is now banned, rather than the current state of not being clear and a secret - even though it didn't take much to work it out. I personally dare not mention the name otherwise at the very least this post will magically disappear, or even I may too disappear off this forum...! Being a secret and lack of transparency, its likely to cause uncertainty and hostility - of course something that seems is a very hot topic in the News at the moment. Of course its not necessary to have all the dirty laundry out in the open, but a short, boilerplate reason (like RCGroups does) and a notice to inform that they are banned is probably sufficient. Also maybe the forum rules need to be clearer on advertising. Those in the model trade are likely to have a wealth of useful information, and thus should be welcomed with open arms - even if they aren't necessarily paying for advertising on this site. Of course excessive advertising is bad, as well as hijacking threads to promote a product - but these are often pointed out quick enough and anyone doing it learn very quickly that it doesn't work (and brings hostilities against them). Another factor to consider is that in these times of austerity, not all retailers can even afford to advertise - many are really struggling! Despite what a lot try to make out to be, my experience is that most RC retailers are small outfits and often one-man-bands struggling to make a living. Now if they contribute more to the forum more than they ever promote their own wares - surely that is payment in itself. After all, an good active community here will continue to drive people here and thus drive people to the retailers that advertise on this website - hence making the forum bring in revenue. One small point, its a shame that none of the retailers who advertise on here appear to actually have representatives (or themselves) who actively participate on the forum... Again RCGroups have a reasonable system of which retailers who don't support the site financially are only allowed to advertise once a week. Also they are not allowed (even the paying sponsors too) to divert a product thread onto their own products. Even though this is frequently disregarded, the only time I've seen action being taken is when its blatantly disregarded. When these offences happen, they build up infraction counts. If you exceed that infraction count within a time frame then you get banned (often 1 week at a start, then full ban if continuos). The short bans provide a bit of visibility to others that an active members isn't playing by the rules. Thus people don't just suddenly get banned. Its all kind of a bit like points on a driving licence. I'm not saying that the way RCG works is ideal, but it does work and despite the very large community, generally stays together well. I know moderating is a very tough exercise and isn't always clear cut. However with it all happening secretly and suddenly without warning doesn't sit quite right imo. Si. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Posted by Ady Hayward on 16/10/2012 22:24:50: So, if you are not employed by the company, but are really enthusiastic about their products is that advertising on their behalf? It can be Ady, especially where the poster designs models for the company, or is sponsored by the company, or flies their models at shows or he's seen serving on their stand at shows. He may not be 'employed' as such but the links are there none the less so that 'enthusiasm' needs to be quantified by way of adding the trading name to the forum name when requested. Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 17/10/2012 05:18:27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Posted by Martin Harris on 16/10/2012 21:54:28: David, I don't want, and have no expectation that you or the other mods will discuss the particular case in any detail on the forum. I'd just like to say that I don't know the banned member personally but from limited conversations I've gained the impression that he meant no harm while posting what he felt would be a link that was interesting to other forum members. I do understand that the forum needs to be seen to be impartial and fair to the magazine's commercial advertisers but he made no secret of his previous association with the importer linked to. I do feel that the poster has made a great number of useful contributions and helped many people in the past and I'd like to think that a dialogue could be established to resolve the situation. Come on now Martin, in the same way as we're not going to start discussing Martin Harris' activities in public, so we're not going to discuss others with you, despite the need to clarify some of your 'impressions' Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 17/10/2012 05:10:10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Posted by Simon Chambers on 17/10/2012 00:37:00: 5 minutes of detective work and I've figured out who it is. Don't know the guy personally, but its always sad when someone who contributed a lot no longer can. I don't know though, or even really care what the reason for the ban tbh. However I do believe it would have been better to see that the user is now banned, rather than the current state of not being clear and a secret - even though it didn't take much to work it out. I personally dare not mention the name otherwise at the very least this post will magically disappear, or even I may too disappear off this forum...! Being a secret and lack of transparency, its likely to cause uncertainty and hostility - of course something that seems is a very hot topic in the News at the moment. Of course its not necessary to have all the dirty laundry out in the open, but a short, boilerplate reason (like RCGroups does) and a notice to inform that they are banned is probably sufficient. Also maybe the forum rules need to be clearer on advertising. Those in the model trade are likely to have a wealth of useful information, and thus should be welcomed with open arms - even if they aren't necessarily paying for advertising on this site. Of course excessive advertising is bad, as well as hijacking threads to promote a product - but these are often pointed out quick enough and anyone doing it learn very quickly that it doesn't work (and brings hostilities against them). Another factor to consider is that in these times of austerity, not all retailers can even afford to advertise - many are really struggling! Despite what a lot try to make out to be, my experience is that most RC retailers are small outfits and often one-man-bands struggling to make a living. Now if they contribute more to the forum more than they ever promote their own wares - surely that is payment in itself. After all, an good active community here will continue to drive people here and thus drive people to the retailers that advertise on this website - hence making the forum bring in revenue. One small point, its a shame that none of the retailers who advertise on here appear to actually have representatives (or themselves) who actively participate on the forum... Again RCGroups have a reasonable system of which retailers who don't support the site financially are only allowed to advertise once a week. Also they are not allowed (even the paying sponsors too) to divert a product thread onto their own products. Even though this is frequently disregarded, the only time I've seen action being taken is when its blatantly disregarded. When these offences happen, they build up infraction counts. If you exceed that infraction count within a time frame then you get banned (often 1 week at a start, then full ban if continuos). The short bans provide a bit of visibility to others that an active members isn't playing by the rules. Thus people don't just suddenly get banned. Its all kind of a bit like points on a driving licence. I'm not saying that the way RCG works is ideal, but it does work and despite the very large community, generally stays together well. I know moderating is a very tough exercise and isn't always clear cut. However with it all happening secretly and suddenly without warning doesn't sit quite right imo. Si. Hmm, well, as an RCG user I'm not convinced by their system Simon but, most important of all, nothing happens here without warning from the poster's perspective. Essentially our system seeks to remove ambiguity and subjectivity from the process - that makes it simple from everyone's perspective and means your moderators can spend more time building and flying which is what we all strive to do. Could I just ask anyone who's about to post not to mention or refer to any particular 'cases' here please. I'm happy to chat about general forum moderation aspects of course. Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 17/10/2012 05:35:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ady Hayward Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Many thanks for the clarification David. I hope this doesn't effect other planned events. Ady Edited By Ady Hayward on 17/10/2012 07:51:04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Posted by Martin Harris on 17/10/2012 08:50:54: Posted by David Ashby - RCME on 17/10/2012 04:45:05: Posted by Martin Harris on 16/10/2012 21:54:28: David, I don't want, and have no expectation that you or the other mods will discuss the particular case in any detail on the forum. I'd just like to say that I don't know the banned member personally but from limited conversations I've gained the impression that he meant no harm while posting what he felt would be a link that was interesting to other forum members. I do understand that the forum needs to be seen to be impartial and fair to the magazine's commercial advertisers but he made no secret of his previous association with the importer linked to. I do feel that the poster has made a great number of useful contributions and helped many people in the past and I'd like to think that a dialogue could be established to resolve the situation. Come on now Martin, in the same way as we're not going to start discussing Martin Harris' activities in public, so we're not going to discuss others with you, despite the need to clarify some of your 'impressions' I've obviously not made it clear when I said "I don't want, and have no expectation that you or the other mods will discuss the particular case in any detail on the forum." I was simply trying to make the point that from a user's point of view, the person concerned has been a valuable contributor to the forum and hoped there might be a way for him to resolve the situation with yourselves in private. I have to admit that my literal understanding of the word "dialogue" was incorrect, thinking it meant a conversation between 2 parties but at least I've learnt something today! (the word's prefix coming from dia meaning across and not di meaning two). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Walters Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok chaps - one of the silent majority here. Let's not get all the toys out of the pram. This forum is a very good forum and I believe that this is as a direct result of the rules and the way in which it is regulated on behalf of the vast majority of it's members.. Do we really want an unregulated forum? I hope not and if we did there would be litigation flying around. Is there humour in the forum - yes and appropriate. Are members treated fairly and with respect by the Moderator. From what I've seen - yes. Have I ever rec'd a 'warning' - well yes I think I have but it was done with a PM in a very professional way. Job done. Do the moderators do a good overall job? The facts speak for themselves don't they?. Is the forum well used and enjoyed by its members - well I think it is by the vast majority. I have seen threads on other RC forums that appal me in their degradation of others' because views or sex going well beyond harmless banter. That sort of forum seems to be anything other than a place where our interest can be be properly discussed and benefit the hobby. If anything that sort of behaviour can be very destructive, exclusive and immature. Am I a prude - certainly not! But if I want to hear or see that kind of discussion I'll watch a political discussion on the TV or watch one of the inane late night TV 'comedy' programmes that rely on kids toilet type of jokes! The Mods know the limits and give their time to ensure that this forum continues to give the members what they sign up for. Thanks for doing that guys. Am I related to any of the Mods? No - not one of them would recognise me ( I hope!)! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Martin, semantics aside, we don't sneak up on folks in the night and ban 'em for nothing. There's a published three-step policy and, at the end of the day forum users have to take responsibility for their own actions - you're all big boys and girls, play nice and play fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly P Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Thanks for the Clarification David. That was all we wanted. As you say, discussing individual cases would be incorrect in public and I think we can park it there. Olly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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