Encouraging young people

[Dylan Reynolds LaserCraft Services]

I have to say at 41 i find it very strange i am the 2nd youngest person there, when i was younger, at school we had a model club with 20 or so members, and we did all the usual builds, FF rubber power, c/l, i even built a 2 metre 2 channel glider. We used to go to all the big shows, Cranfield, Woodvale etc I loved it. It is a shame todays "yoof" don't have the same appreciation.

Although recently in our local rag the Westmorland Gazette there have been people going into schools and teaching the joys of building and flying a plane, one guy in particular built with the pupils the Wright Bros plane and flew them on the school fields, they appeared front page and very good looking models they were.

So I dont think skills are lacking and youngsters today can apply themselves when they have to, I think its just a simple case of can't be bothered attitude thats amongst so many teens today

[Erfolg]

Martins opinion of those who are circumspect with to the benefits of testing are a little disappointing.

I know that all Consultant doctors have spent 6 years in obtaining a degree in medicine. Surprisingly not all degrees are equal, medical degrees are far more demanding in content than many Art Degrees. Which is then followed by further studies of many years with exams. I would suggest that most doctors are quite well trained,. I personally would have more faith in such a person, than in those whom suggest that they have an overblown opinion of their own and fellow practioners knowledge..

In my case, right up until retirement, I took many exams. Most associated with some aspect of safety. Surprisingly I found that the content was often self evident, sometimes, rather alarmingly, the tutors had only a partial understanding of the science. Much driven by political dogma with respect to safety, than fact.

There are exams and exams.

The assertion that young people are only to happy to take exams, I think are based on an opinion, not a fact. Many of those who sat the exams with me, were less than happy, even though much younger.

The question with exams comes down to benefit, relative to the cost. In modelling the cost can be some lost modellers. This could be especially true of the young, who are progressing though, "O" , "A" levels through to degrees. Now that standards in the basic state set exams are seeking to regain the rigour of earlier times, free time becomes limited and precious. Some youngsters may be put off.

In the case of us oldens, now having retired, I am in no hurry to take any exam, where I see no benefit to myself. To the extent, I would stop flying and redirect my interests in walking, history or even golf.

Exams in a hobby are not generally an answer to a problem where the evidence for the need is at best limited or even contentious.

[Ian Jones]

So we want to get a mass of younger people involved, possibly building their first aeroplane to fly, beginning to sound familiar?

A good project for Air Cadets and other youth groups?

For older teenager/young adults perhaps 18+ groups might pick up the gauntlet?

With the help of a local BMFA club, models built by these people could be tested by an experienced pilot. after that the "First Time Flyer Extension" to the BMFA insurance could be implemented to get their first few flights in. The way forward after that would be with the new builder.

Fits the criteria for the mass build and the purpose of the "First Time Flyer Extension".

Whether or not we have a suitable aircraft this time around is doubtful (in terms of being a trainer) but there is always the advice we give in that situation... "There you've seen you chosen model fly, now save it for when you are ready".

Thoughts straight off the top of my head but I'm sure if there was a will there would be way to build on this idea.

Ian

[Peter Beeney]

I’m not sure how easy, or perhaps difficult, it is to actually target individual groups. It seems to me that young people, say from 10 (or younger, in some cases!) to 14, are interested in aeroplanes right at the start, in their own right. These guys already seem to have some knowledge about aviation. I’ve long noticed from the interested parties that approach me that the newcomers are either these youngsters, or relatively older people. But on many many occasions the older people are really only picking it back up again anyway, from where they left it quite a few years before. Perhaps what I’m trying to surmise here is the fact that by the time you are twenty generally speaking you are either going to be interested or you’re not.
Some of our members are also involved in other pastimes, such as fishing, and it would appear there is exactly the same lack of young people taking that particular activity up, too.

I absolutely agree with Erfolg here, too, in some cases there must be local difficulties to be overcome before you can even make a start. With regard to the BMFA, in my opinion if they did something positive, such as providing a flying site, that might provide some encouragement; but I’d also be the first to agree this would be extremely difficult; and, indeed, in many areas quite insurmountable.

The BMFA seems to remain at quite a steady membership level, at around 36,000, I believe. And this might be a reliable barometer as to how many folks are engaged overall. Although I’ve never seen any figures for this. On a point of interest, I seem to remember once that the average age of BMFA members was around 60… … And rising…

Tom T, - it’s always been a bit difficult, and dedication is really the name of the game. I started in 1949 aged 9 with a solid wooden chuck glider. Through the fifties with Keil Kraft rubber powered and glider kits. A start on radio in the sixties with single channel and home made radio. I bought my first proportional set in 1970, a MacGregor, it cost over £300, what’s that in today’s money? But of course I was working then, but even so there was little encouragement, just an ongoing personal wish to tinker with model planes. And here I am, forty odd years later, still tinkering……

PB

[Concorde Speedbird]

Posted by David Ashby - RCME on 12/11/2012 20:44:13:

Posted by ConcordeSpeedbird on 12/11/2012 18:20:17:

My interests are abnormal which I think is sad. I would pick some servos or wood over a video game any day- but no-one else in my school would.

Not a bit - always remember, there's no such thing as 'normal' CS

Very true, but I am part of the 0.3% of RC flyers in my school! Mainly because I am the only one, it was 2 people a few years ago!

DofE, brilliant! I used my Funfly for that, building and flying.

Birdy, that is great since Aerospace engineering is exactly what I want to do!

I spent about an hour and a half Domino building tonight, which was great as usual. I think that targeting a specific age group is difficult, but it does seem that about 20+ is easier since the cost of aeromodelling. I still think that teenagers can get involved- it depends if they are interested.

CS

PS. David A, my Grandad is building something that you will recognise- the Poppet biplane! Lovely looking model!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 12/11/2012 21:11:35:

Martins opinion of those who are circumspect with to the benefits of testing are a little disappointing.

I know that all Consultant doctors have spent 6 years in obtaining a degree in medicine. Surprisingly not all degrees are equal, medical degrees are far more demanding in content than many Art Degrees. Which is then followed by further studies of many years with exams. I would suggest that most doctors are quite well trained,. I personally would have more faith in such a person, than in those whom suggest that they have an overblown opinion of their own and fellow practioners knowledge..

Sorry you see it that way Erfolg, but I didn't claim that this applied in all cases but it IS my opinion that MANY objectors ARE people with significant life experience and/or qualifications.

The "Doctor Syndrome" I referenced earlier does not mean that the skilled professional lacks anything within their chosen field and, it seems, probably means that the most capable are most at risk of falling victim to the syndrome. They are acknowledged experts in their fields, unused to being challenged by juniors and inferior minds and they tend to dismiss or devalue opinions by typical flight instructors not long out of school and building hours towards the start of a career in aviation. These are not my opinions but those of experienced aviation professionals.

The assertion that young people are only to happy to take exams, I think are based on an opinion, not a fact. Many of those who sat the exams with me, were less than happy, even though much younger.

I based this on the assumption that they are in a culture where exams and testing are a normal and necessary feature of daily life and seen as rites of passage and something to strive for in many cases such as driving licences etc. They are less likely to take the view that transferable skills and experience can entitle them to operate in a different environment without demonstrating them.

In the case of us oldens, now having retired, I am in no hurry to take any exam, where I see no benefit to myself. To the extent, I would stop flying and redirect my interests in walking, history or even golf.

I rest my case!

Exams in a hobby are not generally an answer to a problem where the evidence for the need is at best limited or even contentious.

That's really an example of these attitudes, I'm afraid. I would suggest that a youngster would be very likely to readily accept the status quo and embark on the quest for his "A" with some relish and commitment! I don't think the debate on the pros and cons of the A test is directly relevant here.

 

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/11/2012 22:34:43

[scott finnie]

I myself am not part of any clubs, since living on a farm i have my own strip which is handy when the cattle arent sleeping on it! When i'm flying off a private road close by i always get talking to walkers and last year managed to get a few interested in the hobby, i offered them help with learning to fly and they asked if there where any clubs, i recomended a few and they where either told that there where no spaces or they where simply put off with all the you cant do this and you cant do that, i now have been teaching them to fly here , i have invested in 2 eflite apprentice trainers that they certainly enjoy and there pretty great pilots now. I feel many clubs are very off puting now, ashame since when i was 7 i flew my first rc aircraft at a local club, the great friendly guys taught me each step till i left at 11, i recently tried to join again and was told in a firm manner that there are NO spaces and then given a lecture of what will happen if i turn up at there field, very off puting indeed. I do believe we need somewhere either in a mag or online dedicated to younger flyers and alot more education. Yes rules exist but they should never be told in a way that will scare potential rc pilots away from this great hobby, I'm now 25 and enjoy flying most days with a range of aircraft and helis ( my wife will confirm ) but i do feel very lonely out there

Scott

[Erfolg]

Thinking specifically about young people, there are may differences between the environment then, that is the 1950's and now.

Aviation was very much seen as high tech, seething with adventure. That is breaking the sound barrier, flying further and faster, with all the glamour of aircraft having apparently saving a nation, very recently. Then there was a massive aircraft industry, throughout the UK, in that era, it seemed that every week a new plane would be announced, each ever more futuristic than the last. Aeroplanes such as the HP 115, Short SB5 & SB 1, Bristol 118, Avro 707, Boulton Paul P111/120 Fairy FD 2 and so many more right up to the English Electric TSR 2. Then consolidation became apparent, with a massive closure programme, which has gone on for years. Until now we have just three factories in the NW of England. All of this has changed the perception of aircraft. Now, for many, not part of the community

Now my granddaughters walk on board an Airbus or Boeing for example, without a second thought. Not remarkable at all.

Joining in, in our own little way as a youth, tapped into the excitement of the era.

Then their was another issue, toys were in short supply, food on ration. I remember that my Triang train set was purchased months in advance of Christmas, as these toys were hard to source, and expensive. Not every one had a bicycle even.

There was so little available, when not modelling, I would go trainspotting, or was it the other way round?

Not everyone had a television, and only one channel. As for the radio, you got what you were told you should listen to.

Now there is so much choice, at lower real prices.

Is it a surprise that interest in our type of modelling is much lower with the current youth, than in my youth.

Cycling is perhaps an illustration of how perceptions and acceptability can change. Not long ago, I wrote that youth is still interested in cycling, though it is now MTB, rather than road bikes. I thought this could be an example how hobbies can change. Yet now, forget your MTB's, I constantly see young and old wanting to be Bradley Wiggens or Nichoil Cooks. Ten or so years ago, I could and did ride the Velodrome, on club nights. They all want to be Chris Hoy or Victoria Pendleltons. Today I believe talentless riders such as my self, cannot get any time on the track. Who knows what the future can hold for modelling, a transformation in numbers?

The BMFA could be a prime mover in this respect, although I think radical change is required. Together with leaders with vision and ambition. Like the cycling federation, a revolution is required, a change of ideas, structures.

On the whole for the time being, I am quite happy welcoing back oldies, back into the hobby.

Edited By Erfolg on 12/11/2012 22:48:39

[Erfolg]

Martin

I strongly suspect you really know very few doctors. The concept of referral, is based on acknowledging that they do not know all the answers. Consultants from personal experience do not live in a vacuum, do agonise on the best course of action. As to challenge, the whole diagnosis process is about challenge and evaluation.

I can see the purpose of B test in concept, with particular emphasises on public displays.. The A test could have merit. Yet the examples given, of questions, revolving around acronyms, rather than what needs to be checked and why. Testing obscure knowledge of UHF frequency legalities. All exams need to have a clear objective, if to be useful. The questions and tests need to be formulated to that end. The real test is, has our club had more or less claims on the BMFA insurance than clubs who require a test, or some similar criteria.

You are of course correct, that until very recently, there was an obsession with ever more regulation and exams. Although I suspect that much of this was about money and keeping some people happy.

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Erfolg on 12/11/2012 22:48:15:

it seemed that every week a new plane would be announced, each ever more futuristic than the last. Aeroplanes such as the HP 115, Short SB5 & SB 1, Bristol 118, Avro 707, Boulton Paul P111/120 Fairy FD 2 and so many more right up to the English Electric TSR 2. Then consolidation became apparent, with a massive closure programme, which has gone on for years. Until now we have just three factories in the NW of England. All of this has changed the perception of aircraft. Now, for many, not part of the community

Now my granddaughters walk on board an Airbus or Boeing for example, without a second thought. Not remarkable at all.

This is very true. Personally I would have loved to get a job in aviation, however I see it as so stagent. Yeah you might get a new carbon fibre passenger airline or more efficent engines, etc however there aren't anything completely ground breaking like there was in the 50's/60's. Also the other big thing is that you need lots of money (i.e. millions - billons) to develop something commerically viable. Basically there isn't room for a small entrepuner to get going. Unlike the electronics/IT tech industry where there is plenty of room.

Back to the original topic. I see hope. Now the theory, when your a teenager, everything your dad does is uncool (ok there are exceptions, but generally). My generation was brought up on gaming as a way to fill our spare time. Many of those my age and a bit older (I'd say upto around early 30's - i.e. comordor 64/Nitendo NES/etc) are still playing those games but starting to bring up familes. Now as these families get older, those children will grow into teenagers and see their dad's still playing those games. "How uncool is my dad sitting inside playing on the computer all the time?". So thus these teenagers look for other things to do - which makes it an ideal opportunity to catch them!

The other thing that is also very important but over looked is sowing the seed in the mind about it. This is where shows and public engagement projects come in. If people know about model flying, then even though they may not want to start right just now, it puts it in their mind for the future.

Now for myself I'm a first generation flyer. Neither side of my parents family were flyers of any type. I grew up on a diet of computers and electronics (I started programming when I was 5, and I could solder by the time I was 8) - thanks to my Dad bringing me up with it. I can't remember exactly how I first got intrested in the flying hobby, however it must have been around 1998/1999 (I was around 11/12 then) - maybe I saw it on the internet? Can't remember. However I can remember buying RCM&E and getting really intreged about it and getting a huge urge to learn to fly.

A little storey of my flying history now...

So for Christmas around 1999 I bought my first transmitter (I still have the receipt around still!) - a Futaba Field Force 6 - £230. For my birthday I then bought a Phoenix Models 40 Trainer and SC40 engine. All from my LMS - Swindon Models (I think still there and going). Christmas in 2000 I then bought all the starter gear and other bits and pieces to get the engine running. My grandad then built me a very sturdy flight box (which is still going strong today). I then subsequently "built" it.

Unfortantly the manual was crap! I put a screw through the hole of the swing keeper and glued the other end to the control wire. The engine was bolted in with no thought to thrust angles. No pipe to hold the clevises together. Etc, Etc. Anyway I bought it down to my local club (Swindon Model Club) and they pointed out my problems. I took it home to fix.

Anyway next time I went back out, I got it all ready for its maiden. The club instructor (I think who was the chairman) took it up and maidened it. He flew it around a bit and then past the transmitter to me! I flew it around a bit - lost control in a dive, and my nimble quick reacting fingers averted disaster! I passed it back to the instructor, who got some height, lined it up and passed it back. A circuit later, disaster hit! The wings folded! Apparently you needed to sand down the wing spar if its a tight fit, otherwise all the epoxy gets pushed to the centre wing ribs! Obvious when you know after.

[Simon Chambers]

As Christmas/Birthday was another year away, I couldn't get another. My lack of experience stopped me being able to fix it too. Not least I didn't have a covering iron or the funds for covering. Then my grandad stepped in and fixed it up. Unfortantly even though he is a great builder, he is a bit slow and took a year to do it...

By this time I lost interest and funds. 2 years later I bought a corigated plastic trainer which had a enormous wing warp (I mean silly bad!). It flew once but terribly. Ended up in the bin. By this time I was really fed up. However I still continued to buy RCM&E which kept the flame alive in my mind.

Fast forward to 2004/2005, in a year out before I went to Uni - I was 18. I got a twinstar for christmas. I built it with the great manual and joined then my new local club (Basingstoke MFC). When the weather improved I took it down there and had loads of great help in getting it going! That summer I flew it every weekend I could - having a car to get myself there was a great help. However due to its lack of undercaridge I could never take my A-Test and thus move onto other things.

Went to Uni - I took my twinstar with the aim of learning to fly. Unfortantly uni work and socialising pressures gave me no time.

Finished Uni, got a fulltime job with a regular good income. Bought a Mazda RX-8 to itch that fast car itch. Great fun, but stupidly expensive! Ended up burning nearly £6k in depricition, servicing and fuel in a year (I only did 7k miles!). In that year I went to the Bristol Model Engineering show to have a look around. Saw some RC flyers at a stand and got chatting. Long story cut short, I put my name down on the joining waiting list. Later that year I decided that even though the car was great fun, I reckoned I would enjoy flying more and it would be cheaper.

Now the begining of last year I bought a Wot-4 Foam-e (not only got an undercaridge but also suitable for the new minimum weight restriction at the time for an A-Test). Every winter sunday morning I would come out and see the local instructors and they would happily give their time to help (thanks Steve and Andy if your reading!). About 5/6 months later I was ready to take my A-test. On a Friday evening, I took it out for more practice at the field. Flew it around, did a touch and go, oops! A bit low. Cartwheeled it breaking it in two. Oh no I wanted to take my test on the Sunday!

On the Saturday I drove to a LMS, handed over £100 and I was walking out with a brand new wot4 foam-e - just like that! Took it home, spent 30 minutes screwing it together, an hour sticking on the stickers and ready to go again. If it was a wood trainer, it would have been a week or two before I would have been ready. Sunday morning, I took my A and passed. It was one of the most liberating things I had done! No joke, it was on a par with passing my driving test. Over 10 years of trying, I could now go down to the field and fly what ever I wanted on my own!!

2 years on, I still thoroughly enjoy the hobby.

My close mates who know about me flying have often wanted to have ago. I go down to the beach between weston-super-mare/burnham with a foamy of some description, get it up into the air and pass it over. All are suprised how hard it is. Even all have been interested, none have taken it up - yet.

However I wouldn't be surprised if in 5-10 years time, after they've married and settled down, a couple of them will.

So my story has been quite long and difficult, but I got there in the end. However if it wasn't for the determination and love of all things flying, I don't know if I would have ended up here.

Si.

P.s. Sorry for the awful spelling - the forum spell checker won't enable and there is no option to use the default browser spell checker.

Pps. You know when you have written too much, when it won't fit in one post!

[scott finnie]

My first proper rc aircraft was a kyosho trainer 40 in bright luminous PINK, by god you'd never loose sight of her haha, i still have it though the covering is a tad too brittle for even the lightest of flying, after that was the ready jupiter which taught me alot about how when you get a dead stick how bad sink rate can be, got myself a fournier after and had never tip stalled so much in my life ; ) built myself a few west wings aircraft, the toucano , orion and orion e which i still fly to this date, i'm actually in the process of another orion e purposely built for carrying aerial photography equipment, its a nice stable platform but can withstand a beating or two too, always fancied a twinstar but havent got round to buying one yet, got a eflite sabre sitting here still boxed and a seagull grob tutor that David Ashby recently reviewed, having to much scale style flying and video fun with my parkzone albatross ( elfite power 25 12x8 prop, 60amp controller and 11.1 3200 lipo hehe ) i like the back up power since my strip where i fly from is prone to sidewinds and its nice to have the power to gain height or go round quickly, also when filming i like to get height asap and with the unlimited vertical ability its superb, though bring her down to 2 clicks of throttle and she will fly for 20 minutes quite easily ahhh the good old days of learning to fly, sort of miss them

Scott

[Erfolg]

I think many of the examples provided do echo my own thoughts, as to where modellers will come from in the future.

The idea of a general age capture, seems to fit with club experiences, in recent years.

The mass modelling of the late 50's and early 60's, of the young, is unlikely to be repeated. From contributions made, there does seem to be a general experience from that era. Model building was mainly undertaken by youngsters, peer to peer. Little or no older generation intervention. Most models being flown, where ever they could be flown. From that generation, very few are still modelling, perhaps 1-2% as a guess. Most as stated stopped when exams dominated spare time. Socialising changed to music, girls and a few drinks. We read of the few who returned later, as I have done twice.

I think another factor that is an obstacle, is the lack of open spaces, on a comparative basis. Those that exist, are often subject to regulation which can be oppressive. Our own present views and values, does not fit with the spirit of those early times. We all see the need for insurance, yet is it really required for those small park and indoor models/toys.Instinctively we feel the need for insurance, under all circumstances. I guess the other issue is that some models are both easily accessible, due to relatively low cost, and are essentially built. The transition from the innocuous, safe model, to a device of very real potential danger, is easily crossed. In my youth I dreamt of these models and just saw pictures, knowing I would not have one in the foreseeable future.

Some of our +50's new members are surprisingly new to the hobby, never having modelled in the past.

One of my granddaughters is quite interested in flying toys (or I call them models) in the garden, in he house and park. I have resisted the requests to take her flying with me, as I think it would be boring at her age. Instead I help as requested, in the flying activities, with small devices. May be some time in the future she may take up our hobby. If not, I will not shed a tear, just hope she enjoys what she chooses to do.

[cymaz]

May I suggest that flying clubs could look to combine rc cars in the club. There would be some croccover of engine and rc knowledge. Surely it could be arranged that cars have a cetain day on the club strip. I bet that a few car rc'ers would move to planes. The club would be larger and more influential.

Just a thought....I'm not trying to rock the boat.

Also its down to parents not willing to take kids out and stand in a field to watch them fly.  Some parents could want to drop off kids and go off using the club as a baby sitting facility. 

Any club members must be willing to donate planes to their club so anyone can fly without spending large amounts on initial outlay. This is a real bug-bear. The cheaper the initial outlay the better- once the bug has bitten, fliers can get their own planes in their own time.

Club committees could draw up a proper stragety to attract members. Open days, inviting Air Cadets, talks and static displays at schools etc..........

There must be more provision for club trainers and planes. At our club I run have a club trainer always on hand should someone want to try, though  it needs some pre-warning by a week so the batteries can be charged. I am very happy to spend time letting people have a go under the BMFA" try before to fly "clause.

Edited By cymaz on 13/11/2012 12:53:27

Edited By cymaz on 13/11/2012 12:54:32

[Alan Dorrell]

Pause for thought.

When I was a member, mainly so I could take part in contests, of the SMAE, in the mid 1970's, it had a total, and up to then it's highest, membership. of some 3,500 members.

Bear in mind todays membership of the BMFA, which incorporates the SMAE, is in excess of 36,000 !!!

Alan.

[Peter Beeney]

I think I can identify with your story exactly, Scott, and my youngest student was 7… I can also understand your very admirable willingness to help, it’s a way of putting something back in……

I’ve had a tiny experience of these types of authoritative clubs, indeed fortunately very small, but I have heard a few other such stories, usually from dissatisfied members wishing to join us. I’m never surprised by anything I hear these days. I just feel that many folks must be content to accept such dealings and conditions just to be able to fly.

But I personally think that your generosity in teaching others to fly in those conditions, and the Apprentice models to boot, is one of the most commendable actions I’ve read about for a while. I applaud that! Brilliant!

It is, however, not that difficult to understand the reluctance of some clubs to at least be more accommodating. Having been a committee member of one club or another just about all my r/c flying life, I’ve seen both sides; and some individuals can also be very aggressive at times, on one occasion even attempting a ‘takeover’ of the club. As it happens, he was eventually unanimously defeated in a vote at an AGM. This was the second time, there had been a ‘coup’ to change membership rules some years before, and it had taken an EGM on that occasion to reverse it. When you have a popular and successful club others will always think they would like to be in charge!

From the general tone of the postings I would be inclined to think that the average club member in general is not that worried about the decline, if any, in the amount of aeromodellers. A club specialising in beginners might like to adopt different measures to try and attract newcomers but I certainly can’t see it happening as a universal standard, even in our outfit. We will always oblige and assist newcomers, to the best of our ability, but they have to come to us.

The reason for the jump in BMFA membership was simply because in the 1980s they changed the rules to insist that all club members had to join for the club to be affiliated. At the time, this also was very acrimonious in some quarters, I know of at least two people that gave up model flying because of it. One was the Chairman of a large club, he’d been in a print union all his life, and he said he’d had enough of ‘closed shop’ procedures and he didn’t want it in his hobby too. He was serious about it, when the club voted in favour of the change he resigned and left. I’d always been a BMFA member anyway, but I too have always felt this was, and still is, very draconian. But to maintain the hobby, there is probably little alternative…….

I think it is still the SMAE overall, Society of Model Aeronautical Engineers, but the name change, British Model Flying Association, was given to try and reflect the changing nature of the activities of the members.

PB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 12/11/2012 23:15:08:

Martin

I strongly suspect you really know very few doctors. The concept of referral, is based on acknowledging that they do not know all the answers. Consultants from personal experience do not live in a vacuum, do agonise on the best course of action. As to challenge, the whole diagnosis process is about challenge and evaluation.

I can see the purpose of B test in concept, with particular emphasises on public displays.. The A test could have merit. Yet the examples given, of questions, revolving around acronyms, rather than what needs to be checked and why. Testing obscure knowledge of UHF frequency legalities. All exams need to have a clear objective, if to be useful. The questions and tests need to be formulated to that end. The real test is, has our club had more or less claims on the BMFA insurance than clubs who require a test, or some similar criteria.

You are of course correct, that until very recently, there was an obsession with ever more regulation and exams. Although I suspect that much of this was about money and keeping some people happy.

 

Actually, at the time I was introduced to the "Doctor Syndrome", amongst my friends and acquaintances, I numbered one of the country's leading kidney specialists, a consultant neurosurgeon, a consultant anaesthetist, a general surgeon in her final years of post-graduate training and several GPs plus a smattering of radiologists and nurses who worked with doctors on a daily basis.

However, I'm not sure why you're getting so hung up over doctors - as I explained in the first post, it was a term used to describe the effects on people well used to respect in their professions being taught and examined in a new discipline by people with far less kudos and failing to accept the full instructional messages and wisdom. This lead, in the full size world, to a disproportionate number of accidents, incidents and deaths to people in this category.

My observation was that in my experience, people with long life experience and good qualifications in fields unrelated to model flying have been more vocal in condemning the A test in its philosophy and execution than youngsters coming into the hobby. I would be interested in the opinions of some of our younger contributors on this subject. For example, does the thought of practicing for and taking the A test put you off the hobby or do you see it as an achievement that gives you a buzz to obtain?

Your attack on the content of the A test questions likely to be asked should really be targeted at individual examiners but the whole ethos of the questions asked is, as I understand it, to give the examiner confidence that the candidate has read and is familiar with the contents of the handbook and CAP 658 - asking questions from a narrow field directly relating to day to day operating issues would not necessarily illustrate this. Most of the "what needs to be checked and why" topics you refer to are covered during the practical test.

Edited By Martin Harris on 13/11/2012 16:33:12

[Ian Jones]

Concorde Speedbird & Tom T,

I don't want to put you in a difficult position but as you are around the age we are talking about I'd be interested to know if you think younger people would be encouraged by reading this thread?

Of course you don't have to answer my question.

[Concorde Speedbird]

No problem Ian!

It is a good question, one I am not sure about. I think they would be more interested in actually getting onto the sticks and having a go, because then if they find they enjoy it- they'll want more! That is what I think anyway, it would be interesting to see what Tom thinks. Thanks for the question!

CS

[scott finnie]

Hi Martin, Hi Ian, ,

I can vaguely remember sitting my scottish aeromodellers test when i was very young, cant put an age on it but a wee boy, i flew the kyosho trainer 40 with a futaba skysport 6a, ahh those where some of my best memories learning how to fly level and straight, perform figure of 8s and identifying and correcting stalls ect. At the time it was the number 1 thing in my head to achieve my certificate, the day i passed was like the day i passed my driving test, the buzz stays with you forever, i can remember my examiner saying be wary of the sheep today and my little hands trembling with excitement to be in control of a model that the wingspan was bigger than me, those days are long gone , certificates expired, memberships gone and teach my own students on private land how to fly. Its not the issue of youngsters not been interested in the (A) pass its the current access problem and member commitment in clubs that hault our youngsters proceeding in the way i did, i can remember members welcoming me with open arms and making sure i enjoyed every part of my learning curve. Theres too much negative feedback from clubs these days either with no member vacancies or they talk about the (A) pass been as difficult as brain surgery and talk about all the costs involved. Also theres not many club members who want to teach either. I thoroughly enjoy teaching from the basics of flight by simply throwing a free flight model too advanced flight awareness and control with our various trainer aircraft ( 2 eflite apprentice, 1 parkzone t28, eflite t34 mentor, acro wot) . I believe its time for our clubs to come together again and be warm and inviting, make the (A) test feel special again and accesible not a certificate of red tape,

Happy Flying and look forward to hearing from other young flyers,

Regards,

Scott

[Erfolg]

Martin, I do not recognise your assertion at all, if true there would be considerable public and professional concern, It is a somewhat self serving argument of trying to disparage views which do not accord with your own.

More importantly, I do not want to see any compulsory imposition of A level testing. Primarily in that I am not aware that groups or individuals not possessing such a certificate are involved in more incidents than those who hold such a document.

There are many ways of ensuring that models are flown safely, The A certificate is potentially one.

One major limitation of certification such as the A test, is that revalidation is required to provide confidence that the skill level and or related knowledge is maintained. Rather than the original test being a fleeting demonstration of competence. Most professional bodies incorporate this aspect in maintaining their professional status (including the medical profession).

It is on this basis that I find the concept of restricting club membership to only those who hold such a certificate as artificially restrictive.

In a similar vein, I do wonder why some clubs have joining fees, particularly if new members are wanted. Less obstacles are required, not more.

I will take some convincing in the assertion that young people want and are happy to take tests .If their youth is in any way similar to my own. Some exams were a must, anything else had to fit in with studies.

Of course some of all age groups will find the idea attractive, likewise there will be a counter view.

I think we will just have to disagree, as we are polar positions apart, both convinced in the validity of our arguments and position

 

 

Edited By Erfolg on 13/11/2012 17:12:45

[Tom T]

I will have to re-reply later,

I wrote about a 500word response to the thread and the computer locked up on me on the last few sentences I have to dash to cadets so I will rewrite when I get back. Not unless it is possible for Mr Ashby to recover it?

Sorry, I will re-write late

Tom

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Erfolg,

I'm having trouble following your logic so it's probably best left beyond a simple reassertion of my original observation that the posters who seem most against testing are not, as far as I recall, young people coming into the hobby. The problem referred to was seen as real and recognised as a concern to be addressed. I raised it simply to reinforce my observation.

In terms of disagreement, I would add that I fully agree with most, if not all of your later posting (12/11/2012 22:48:15) and several of the points raised in your latest one so we're not that far apart!

The issue of re-validation is interesting but I'd take the view that the majority of flying subject to A test "regulation" takes place in a monitored club environment and clubs have a mechanism available to address any concern over competence in what is a very basic skillset to monitor.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[MikeS]

This happened at my last club. We had willing trainers but it was voted that you had to have an A cert to join.

If you where already a member then you could only fly with another member by your side.

The club went down hill from then onwards. They still fly but the club is not like it was. Glad I got out when I did.

Mike