When does a fly-in become a show for a B cert?

[ben goodfellow 1]

where does the line lie for a fly in to become a public show , i ask this as i always thought you had to have a b cert to fly at shows or where public attend .does it matter if the public pay or not pay ,

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

CAP 658 (which is the CAA guide to compliance with the Air Navigation Order) only states that organisers are responsible for verification of the competence of all pilots taking part in the display.

It's usually accepted that holding a B certificate is an acceptable indication that the pilot is likely to be capable of flying at a public display but nowhere in law does it state that it's compulsory. Simply holding a B isn't a "licence" to display though and an organiser may require more proof of competence. If the pilot is known to an organiser then unless the insurer or landowner requires a B, then that pilot could quite legally fly without even holding an A. The organiser would need to justify their criteria for allowing any pilot to fly if an accident or incident were to be investigated by the authorities so if their pilot didn't hold a B they would find it that much more difficult.

From the above, you'll see that the line lies with the organiser.

Edited By Martin Harris on 25/11/2012 22:54:00

[John Privett]

Having a 'B' is not a legal requirement, just a recommendation from the BMFA.

Having said that, in the event of any incident a show organiser would need to be prepared to give a very good explanation for why he'd not followed "best practice" as outlined in the BMFA's recommendations. But basically it's down to the show or fly-in organiser to determine what means they are going to use to evaluate the pilots flying at the event.

[Andrew Jarvis 1]

Posted by ben goodfellow 1 on 25/11/2012 22:29:41:

where does the line lie for a fly in to become a public show , i ask this as i always thought you had to have a b cert to fly at shows or where public attend .does it matter if the public pay or not pay ,

What John said^

It makes no difference if the public pay or not, if you hold an event with the intention to invite the public along to raise money for charity for example, it's a public display.

[Andy Green]

I think there is a bigger question here for the organisers, and its when does a dispay have to have separate insurance - not just the pilots

Andy

[bouncebounce crunch]

oh no, all that office space full of staff, funds that your clubs and club members forward to help them,print handbooks, monitor guidelines and their clarifications, with the latest computer technology one stroke of a button you can send an email to thousands of people in one go no stamp or envelope cost. so the BMFA is working well for you lot then.

I know flames are coming.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

That's as may be BBC but I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why you feel the need to fan them quite so often!

[bouncebounce crunch]

I know that I am causing a stir, but with everything in todays life, whether you are a business owner or customer, we want bang for our buck, I am not a modeler in GB unfortunately (best mag, and some very very good -great models and modelers) but look at that survey to the left and one stands out proud, on its own. Of course this is an extremely small sample, but not one respondent has been brought in by the ruling body and they are holding your funds.

Same is happening in Oz. so the sore spot keeps getting rubbed. Sorry.

bbc.

[Andrew Jarvis 1]

Posted by bouncebouncecrunch on 26/11/2012 10:06:02:

but look at that survey to the left and one stands out proud, on its own. Of course this is an extremely small sample, but not one respondent has been brought in by the ruling body and they are holding your funds.

I wouldn't read too much into the BMFA events having no votes, BMFA events are few and far between and tend to be only open to members, however, the BMFA is superbly represented at most of the major shows in the UK where the guys involved do stirling work to promote the hobby.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Thanks for your interest BBC and I'm sure it's well intentioned but I don't find it that survey result surprising as I think very few people would go through life with no interest in aeromodelling and suddenly feel prompted to take it up out of the blue by happening to pass by a BMFA Nationals or AGM, show stand at a flying show etc.

I don't have any idea (or opinion) on how model flying is run Down Under, but doesn't the generally positive response to other threads regarding the BMFA show you that most members seem quite happy that they are doing a reasonable job? There's always room to question and make suggestions of course and hopefully anyone with reasoned criticism would always feel free to raise their concerns.

I hope you can resolve your problems with the Australian organisation but that doesn't necessarily mean that all national bodies should be tarred with the same brush.

Edited By Martin Harris on 26/11/2012 10:43:15

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

The other thing to remember BBC is that the UK is not Australia.....it seems that the Nanny State is much in the ascendency here in the UK & the concept of "an accident" has changed to more like "Whose fault is it & who can we sue?" Against that sort of a backdrop it is not surprising that show organisers, most of who are unpaid volunteers, try to cover themselves in case the worst happens. I know I would......

We may not like it but we have to live in the world as it is not as we would like it to be......

Given that you don't have first hand knowledge or experience of aeromodelling events in the UK I find it odd that you feel qualified to pontificate on what may or may not be required to run them......

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Can we stay on topic please - this thread is not about the BMFA, its about the threshohold between fly-ins on the one hand and public displays on the other and the steps organisers must take to ensure that they comply with CAP 658.

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

How good is that!!!! I get to mod a mod!

BEB

PS Steve posted while I was posting, so I'll let him off!

[Andy Symons]

Ben

If you email the BMFA office for attention of me on [email protected] I will send you a copy of the Display Organisers Handbook which explains everything, it also includes the display site assesment forms which event organisers can fill and return and then subject to the details being acceptable event organisers get a letter by return confirming extended insurance for the event all at no charge!!

Just another service included in the incredibly reasonable BMFA subsciption.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Brilliant Andy - perfectly on topic and encompassing the off-topic as well!

[kc]

Andy, that's just the sort of thing we criticise the BMFA for! These show organisers expect to pocket the proceeds of the display for themselves and get BMFA insurance free while we BMFA ordinary members have to pay a membership fee far higher than just our insurance cost which is all we really want.

Perhaps we Brits will be polite enough not to interfere with Australian model organisation matters and vice versa.

[Andy Symons]

Posted by kc on 26/11/2012 11:34:41:

Andy, that's just the sort of thing we criticise the BMFA for! These show organisers expect to pocket the proceeds of the display for themselves and get BMFA insurance free while we BMFA ordinary members have to pay a membership fee far higher than just our insurance cost which is all we really want.

Really? So all you want is insurance? I suspect there are some that only want to pay for insurance but are happy to take the other benefits too such as representation where it matters.

The majority of show organisers are BMFA clubs and BMFA members so its a service supporting BMFA members and clubs. Big commercial shows, not that I can think of many but Wings and Wheels is one, organise there own commercial insurance to cover the event.

[fly boy3]

Hi all, wondered if there is a difference between, a so called club "fly in" and a show where people have to pay to watch., as regards to insurance. Cheers

[Andrew Jarvis 1]

Posted by fly boy3 on 26/11/2012 14:20:14:

Hi all, wondered if there is a difference between, a so called club "fly in" and a show where people have to pay to watch., as regards to insurance. Cheers

Whether you pay or not is irrelevant, a club fly in is just what it says' a Fly in for pilots, some clubs charge a nominal fee to fly, when you invite the non flying public along you technicaly create a show, regardless of whether or not you are charging entry.