Should we be licenced

[Colin Leighfield]

I hope all of this doesn't mean that BEB knows something that we don't, because if not I personally hope that it won't go any further.

In governmental terms we are an insignificant number and hardly likely to warrant administrative time in cost/ benefit terms. The risks we describe are primarily concerned with 1. Human error, which always exists but demonstrably over many years is statistically insignificant in consequences, serious as they may be when they happen. 2. Incompetence, which you will never eliminate in any voluntary activity. However, the evidence is that existing arrangements within clubs and local authorities control this reasonably well. Many would say that it is already too onerous in some cases. 3. Malovelent intent, e.g. terrorism. Licensing would do nothing to mitigate that risk.

Personally I don't see any benefit in this idea and hope it will now be allowed to quietly disappear.

[Flite08]

To seems me it that BEB is just doing it to liven the forum up, I'm sure we all know its not going to happen for all the reasons already stated.........but he did manage to wind a few members up !!!

[Tim Mackey]

amended

Edited By Tim Mackey on 11/02/2013 16:59:12

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by daddycool on 11/02/2013 16:24:31:

It seems to me that this topic is being aired because something is going to become reallity and to give it an airing on a site like this is only brainwashing and preparing ourselves for the outcome.

Now dont say i am paranoid but look at george orwell book big brother and a lot of the stuff in that became reality even before the predicted time.

For all we know the person who posted this originally was prompted by his 'boses' to start the ball rolling.

LOL, love the idea that the Ashbys are controlling BEB. LOL

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Adrian Smith 1 on 11/02/2013 16:14:34:

"Tie that in with insurers requiring a certain demonstrated level of competency and you have a reasonably robust system of control at little or no cost to the average club member and a small amount of effort required by the independant flyer who would certainly not be turned away by my club if they wanted to come along and take a BMFA test if that was a pre-requisite."

What you say Martin is fine in utopialand, but how many times have I read previously on this forum of independant/novice fliers being turned away from clubs because membership is closed or the facilities are for a select few who don't welcome newcomers. So to imagine that only a "small effort" by independant fliers is likely to fly at a club is possibly being a bit optimistic. Don't we have a mechanism at the moment that's akin to "if it's not broken, don't try and fix it"?

It would certainly be interesting to discover the number of fliers who operate "substantial" models outside of a club environment. We've relaxed our "blanket" rules relating to models under the qualifying A test weight a little of late (although maintaining a certain amount of control) and I could envisage that smaller models could well be exempted from any control over larger ones - say upwards of 1kg flying weight.

As to not fixing something that isn't broken isn't this akin to not bothering to inspect an airliner until cracks are visible on the surface of the wings - the suggestion is about using a system which is largely in place to pre-empt more restrictive legislation in the future.

As I've said, this isn't something to dismiss out of hand but there again it's not something to rush into either.

Love the conspiracy theorists!

...but saddened that there may be clubs out there that turn people away without good reason. It's not been my experience that clubs I've visited or other modellers I've met have been anything other than welcoming and come over simply as fellow enthusiasts.

[Mr Loop2Loop-UK]

Why was my post deleted, it was perfectly valid..

L2L

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have just had to delete the first post on this thread for intemperate language. Now that's one on well over 100 and so that's just one person who can't "play by the rules" so no reason to spoil it for the majority who are having perfectly reasonable debate without abusive or unacceptable comments and/or labels. So, let's keep it tolerant - I think we've done very well so far, let's keep iy that way!

BEB

PS Love the conspiracy theory joke, er,...it was a joke,...wasn't it?

[Mr Loop2Loop-UK]

Im a lone flyer, why should people like me be punished by some new bmfa rule or some goverment person decides to punish people further by making up some new rule in a form of a License or yet a Hobby tax that ruins the HOBBY for eveyone that enjoys it, thats right it's a HOBBY not the real thing, once the goverment or the bmfa start to impead on our rights to have this hobby as in, " you got to have a license " then the HOBBY is ruined for many people who enjoy it, like someone said on here, whats next an MOT for a model aircraft or show a bmfa cert just to buy a model, i have been enjoying this HOBBY for over 30yrs now and always will be a lone flyer, i will never stop just cos some person wants to ruin my hobby, i agree with common sense BUT License's, NOOOooo..

L2L Oh by the way BEB. their is no offensive stuff in this post, i just amended it..

[Martian]

All I can say is roll on decent flying weather

[WolstonFlyer]

Your first post was not really that offensive Mr Loop2Loop-UK, there are juniors that read this website so there are some rules on language.... but if they were subscribed to this thread by email they would have already received the first version by email anyway.

[Delta Whiskey]

Not read the whole of this thread so apologies if this comment has already been made........but of course they want to license our sport, why would'nt they !

They already rip us off with fishing licenses, TV liceneses etc etc so this would be another great source of revenue !

[Mr Loop2Loop-UK]

Posted by WolstonFlyer on 11/02/2013 17:55:25:
Your first post was not really that offensive Mr Loop2Loop-UK, there are juniors that read this website so there are some rules on language.... but if they were subscribed to this thread by email they would have already received the first version by email anyway.

very true, it was not intended to offend anyone, it was just my point of view, and when it come to defending my rights to have this hobby, i can be a bit agressive, sorry to everyone , but like delta said and i agree with him whole hearted, it would not surprise me if there was some license invented for this hobby at somepoint in the far future..

L2L

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

OK, I think everyone has had a good chance to air their views and join the debate on what I think we can all agree was an interesting topic. But a potentially controversial thread like this is very high maintainance for the mods. So what I propose is we leave it up for another hour or two - just in case anyone has something new they are burning to add and hasn't had a chance yet. Then I suggest we lock it down. It will be like a time capsule - maybe we'll come back in many years and L2L will be right and its happened - or maybe we'll look back and think "did we really think that would happen"! Who knows? One thing I would like to do is thank you all for taking part and contributing such interesting views in a splendid debate.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/02/2013 18:19:58

[Mr.B.]

Any licensing system is only worth anything if it’s policed in some way. Now, if the police sent up little fighters to intercept our aircraft, and we could try to evade them….

Sorry, nothing sensible to add.

[Peter Beeney]

Martin, - Sorry, I’ve been out for a while, a spot of small model flying, actually. However, to quote BEB a little further on in his OP - “It could be illegal for a trader to sell someone a model without seeing the approriate licence. Similarly it would be illegal to fly such a model in or over a public place without an appropriate licence. “ For this to be so, the licence would have to be a bona fide licence to fly a model aeroplane, not something in the nature of a A or B issued by the BMFA. The difference may perhaps be in the wording, namely ‘would’ ‘could’ or ‘should’, the devil in the detail, but it would have to be a licence issued by a licencing authority, or in other words, a statutory law.

As before, I’m convinced this would either have to be a full blown conversion, or left entirely alone. And I’m very much going down the latter road, so it’s never really going to affect me anyway.

PB

Edited By Peter Beeney on 11/02/2013 18:52:36

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Peter Beeney on 11/02/2013 18:51:15:

Martin, - Sorry, I’ve been out for a while, a spot of small model flying, actually. PB

Edited By Peter Beeney on 11/02/2013 18:52:36

You lucky devil!

Roll on retirement!

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

That's why I thought the compulsory insurance idea had some merit, Peter - where the assumption was made that the insurers would embrace the idea that pilots should meet certain criteria in order for their cover to be valid. Those criteria could include such ideas as B certificate (or equivalent) for flying large or turbine powered models, for example.

These ideas are just that - certainly not proposals at this stage...

[SkippyUK]

On the insurance issue - would it not work like NCL but the better certificate you had, the cheaper the insurance?

The insurance industry would be able to police this but at what cost - we're not talking about £1200 policies for learners and a multi million pound insurance industry here!.

On another subject within this thread - my experience is that a very many glider guys do not belong to official clubs so how does the BMFA affiliated club requirement work for this whole branch of flying?

I've met quite a few that don't bother with insurance either - that's for IC planes....

Skippy

[Peter Beeney]

BEB, - Please don’t wish too hard for retirement, too quickly, it all comes soon enough! And then what further options can you consider…… ….and the model flying is more than hard work as it happens, too, trying to keep four models in the air surrounded by eight schoolboys of varying skill level and character …. It’s two full time jobs in one hit…….

Martin, - Again, I can only consider that compulsory insurance would involve a statutory law, so that that would change the situation entirely. For say the B certificate to valid in such a case it would have to be an approved type of test, and I’m not even sure the BMFA would be approved to such carry out such a test. But it’s all of little consequence anyway……

PB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

At the risk of getting too deep into what's only a hypothesis, there's no legal compulsion for the holder of insurance cover other than to comply with the insurer's terms and conditions within a contract made between them and the holder in order to maintain its validity.

If insurance were compulsory and the insurer could be satisfied that a reasonable standard had been demonstrated then we have the basis for some form of effective self-policing rather than risking full blown licencing and official control.

Again, I'd stress that no-one is suggesting that we blunder ahead with firm proposals for anything along these lines but with the advent of easier access to ready to fly models which are getting increasingly larger and heavier it is something that is worth considering before things spiral out of our control.

[LMA Dave]

A very interesting debate, I have watch with interest and all seem to point to the BMFA would be the driving force behind the licensing and making sure everybody has an A or B to qualify for this so called licence, well have you considered those of us who are not in the BMFA and don't wish too but still have the same cover of insurance, me being one of them.

Edited By LMA Dave on 11/02/2013 20:02:38

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Dave - I think we covered this around 2ish this afternoon and amongst others, since then I've certainly been careful not to imply that the BMFA is the only organisation which should be involved in any thought on this subject.

Edited By Martin Harris on 11/02/2013 20:07:35

[Devon Flyer]

Getting back to the original question posed in this thread - "Should we be licenced?".

Emphatically - "NO!"

End of.

Any other discussion on the topic might imply that some sort of official licencing would be acceptable.

Don't be a Turkey voting for Christmas!

[fly boy3]

Iv'e got it, Beb has created a smoke screen with this thread, to prevent us retired fliers from building and flying while Beb has to work. Shame on you Sir. Ha Ha. As Peter mentioned it will come quicker than you wish. Cheers. Interesting thread though.

[Erfolg]

If you want to kill any possible future for RC, you will embrace the idea whole heartedly.

Will you be able or should you stop children with RC toys?

I would ask, should archers be licenced to buy bows etc, All cyclist required to pass a test, to buy a bicycle, have insurance? This train of thought ends in the total bureaucracy that many in the east of Europe have just escaped.

I for one would give up. We have to many jobs worth in this hobby, more than I have encountered in any other leisure pastime. Is it because we are old and intolerant of others doing what they want, rather than what we think they should do?

You may wax lyrical about the various air navigation regulations. The same concept of activities being regulated by acts of parliament and other codes cover many other aspects of life, from using the roads, as a pedestrian in addition to the various modes of transport, even walking in the country side has various legal constraints and obligations.

If you cannot tell, I am livid, that anybody would allow such a thought to cross their mind in a country where I thought freedom was cherished. Particularly when the only evidence of an issue is, what if, some one could be ............