Mass Build general chat

[Bearair]

Posted by Eddie Stocker - DB Sport and Scale on 15/10/2013 14:30:05:

Hello BEB & KC,

We just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings as to what we advertise as a standard planpack which we think is now clear. We can supply the other wood materials as required once the modeller has worked out a list of his requirements (as he/she would need to if using other outlets for such materials. Regarding obtaining plans for our aircraft from other sources, it should be bourne in mind that the DB ones in the mass build list are ones that we hold the copyrights to, something that we look after carefully.

Eddie.

I must say I find your response a bit surprising Mr Stocker, a veiled threat about copyright? a bit strong I think. As BEB said this was a bit of a storm in a teacup situation now its more like a Hurricane!

Hopefully I have miss understood your intentions by mentioning copyright.

Roger

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Eddie,

thatnks for the update - that's great - and I think very clear.

The mass build Barnstormers cover all known variants - I don't know who holds all these different copyrights but please be assured that this forum would not encourage modellers to breech the law on this, or any other, issue. The position of the forum is, and must be, that modellers should obtain plans in such a manner that they are operating within the law in respect of copyright.

But of course other sources of the Barnstormer plan do exist - in sizes you do not offer - and of course even through MHS at the same size - albeit in the later case at a higher priice than at DBS&S!

BEB

[Mike Hardy]

I have ordered a plan pack for the 63" Barnstormer from DB Sports and Leisure, (delivery 2 weeks) I hope someone on here who already has a plan can work out a 'wood list' and publish on here, so we can crack-on and order the wood. As a novice this info together with the grade of wood is highly important.

Mike.

[Colin Leighfield]

I've ordered the Pushy Cat plan from Traplet. They also have the original build feature from Q&EFI for £3-99, so I've included that. I did have this mag and plan originally, but you can't keep everything for ever, so I lost it in a routine clear-out a while ago. Never mind!

I remember the Tyro as an early free plan a very long time ago and it might still be lying around somewhere, don't think I'll bust a gut trying to find it though!

[Eddie Stocker - Formerly, DB Sport and Scale]

I must say I find your response a bit surprising Mr Stocker, a veiled threat about copyright? a bit strong I think. As BEB said this was a bit of a storm in a teacup situation now its more like a Hurricane!

Hopefully I have miss understood your intentions by mentioning copyright.

Roger
________________

Hello Roger,

I wouldn't have thought to mention copyright were it not that it has already been mentioned in this thread and subsequently referred to. Having had to purchase copyright for the plans of the Boddington aircraft in our business, surely it would be understood that we need to protect that from being undermined in order to maintain the foundation of what our busuiness is all about, otherwise another Britsh business will fall. We have no desire to pick a fight or to threaten anyone, we are simply stating the truth. Yes, there are "as you point out" other sizes of these aircraft, Boddo designed over 550 various models, we own the copyright to 54 of these, so there is much scope out there.

It seems that you may well have misunderstood our posting, and we apologise to anyone who may also have been upset by what has been written, but to upset people was never our intention.

Eddie.

[Bob Cotsford]

Yesterday I ordered the PC plan from Traplet, this morning I missed a phone call and got a message asking me to contact them about my order. Thinking there was some sort of problem with the payment or availability of the plan I rang them.

Mistake. They were just trying to flog me the build article for £4 odd. On MY phone bill! Bad enough getting cold-called, but to ask me to phone them back really is taking the mickey in my opinion.

[WolstonFlyer]

Posted by Eddie Stocker - DB Sport and Scale on 15/10/2013 16:17:56:

I wouldn't have thought to mention copyright were it not that it has already been mentioned in this thread and subsequently referred to. Having had to purchase copyright for the plans of the Boddington aircraft in our business, surely it would be understood that we need to protect that from being undermined in order to maintain the foundation of what our busuiness is all about, otherwise another Britsh business will fall.

Dear Eddie

It is me that found a plan for the 45" Tyro on Outerzone, I was actually looking for some build pictures of the model, I don't know who uploaded it (certainly was not me) but since yesterday it looks like that the listing is now corrected and points a link back to your website for purchase.

Best wishes

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Hmm that's odd WF, I don't see a 45" Tyro available from DB S&S? Just the Tyro major.

[WolstonFlyer]

Hi Chris, it is on the plan packs page, just above the Tryo Major, this is the page:

**Link**

[Bearair]

Eddie, I to wish to apologise if I caused you any offence, I found you to be a very nice bloke to talk to yesterday when I ordered a Tinker plan and wheels off of you. However I thought your post came across in print as not very representative of how you are in conversation's. I fully support any British company continuing our great heritage in model flying and do not from buy companies either flouting copyright laws or exploiting loopholes in the tax regime. I hope that using DBs design's in the mass build will provide your company at least a small boost in business and in the long term promote traditional building.

Best Wishes

Roger

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by WolstonFlyer on 15/10/2013 18:14:25:
Hi Chris, it is on the plan packs page, just above the Tryo Major, this is the page:

**Link**

Thanks WF. You know what, your link works fine, but when I go on the plan packs page, it's not there!
Aha, a few refreshes and it is now. Eddie must be adding items to the website. That's good news

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Eddie Stocker - DB Sport and Scale on 15/10/2013 16:17:56:

It seems that you may well have misunderstood our posting, and we apologise to anyone who may also have been upset by what has been written, but to upset people was never our intention.

Eddie.

That's fine Eddie - I'm sure we all going to enjoy the mass build together!

If any experoenced builder are in the process of doing wood lists for these models could they send me a PM please so we can ensure that lots of folks are not duplicating efforts!

BEB

[kc]

I think everybody in aeromodelling regards Eddie & DB as one of the 'good guys' so it's obviously a good idea to buy the plans from them, and the prices are reasonable.

But I correctly pointed out that the same model ( maybe a slightly different plan) is sometimes available from other sources. One example is the Mighty Barnstormer 89 inch published in RC Modeler May 72 in USA and still listed by RCM plans. But DB Sport & Scale would be a better source for the Mighty Barnstormer 88 inch in my opinion.

[Erfolg]

The issue of copyright and the Barnstormer had not entered my mind, until I read the last few postings. Whilst cooking tea, I thought Hmmm, 70 years or something after the death of the creator, I think. Then as usual with so much, the picture seems quite complex, from a distance.

When I built my Barnstormer, which I think was about 60" span. I am sure there was a plan, printed by APS, which I think became Traplet. I had thought that David Boddington would have been required to transfer the copyright to APS, to get it published. Then there are a number of different sizes which appeared over the years. Is there a copyright for each.

I was then thinking, what does the copyright cover, is it the shape? the drawing?

If it were the shape, they all look similar but do seem to vary with size. Constructional details change with each model variant. Which made me think, I would guess that for each model, Traplet, probably hold the copyright, on the ones in their plan service..

But copyright to what, how different does a model have to be not to be covered, as I guess that Traplet and DB are pretty close to each other, Or do they hold a common copyright.

If you make a 1.5 version of the original, is that a breach of copyright?

Just curious really.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Do you mean MyHobbystores Erfolg? I see Barnstormer and Tyro plans there.

I fact, the Tyro plan I have, says "presented free with RCM&E Dec 1966" and "Copyright Model Aeronautical Press Ltd"

[Erfolg]

I am not sure where APS came from (Aeronautical Plan Services). Then again Model & Allied Press also came to mind. Did APS become MAP? Anyway I got of my backside and had a look at my old plans handbook where the Barnstormer 72, as does a Barnstormer 52, was published by MAP.

So has MAP become Myhobbystores, I am really intrigued.

Is this a little like Carl Zeiss and Carl Zeiss of Jena. Everybody holding a copyright and trademarks for apparently the same thing. Where many court cases settled little.

In most respects it was the idea that intrigued me rather than specifically the Barnstormer. Perhaps what resonates with me, is the shear number of Barnstormer variants that there are, and the thought, who owns what and why.

[Colin Leighfield]

Bob, re your experience with the Pushy Cat plan. I think it's young Craig trying too hard. He called me directly on my mobile to ask me if I would like the QEFI supporting feature for £3.99 so I said yes. I've spoken to him before and he's been very helpful. I think it's more likely thoughtlesness than taking advantage deliberately on his part. Hope you didn't completely dismantle him!

[Eddie Stocker - Formerly, DB Sport and Scale]

WoW, What a hornets nest this has stirred up!

While this is really private business, suffice it to say that since we purchased the copyright to specific aircraft, we have granted RCM&E permission to continue to print & sell those plans that both they & we hold. As said before, there are variants of them that we don't hold or own copyright to.

Judy & I have spent a fair while in securing these rights in an effort to protect what we consider to be a very precious business in the line that it is. If any of you are in any doubt that we are the true & legitimate copyright holders, we can produce the legal documentation signed by David Boddington himself & witnessed by Ken Swales.

Regarding the fact that some plans were given as freebies in certain magazines, it would be for that issue only, it doesn't give cart blanche freedom across the board to reproduce them indefinitely.

Anyhow, surely gluing bits of wood together is better than getting into the legal depths of copyright law, is it not?

Eddie.

[David Tweddle]

Thanks Colin I needed a good laugh having spent best part of the day in hospital with the other half.

David

[Phil Winks]

Posted by Eddie Stocker - DB Sport and Scale on 15/10/2013 21:11:37:

WoW, What a hornets nest this has stirred up!

While this is really private business, suffice it to say that since we purchased the copyright to specific aircraft, we have granted RCM&E permission to continue to print & sell those plans that both they & we hold. As said before, there are variants of them that we don't hold or own copyright to.

Judy & I have spent a fair while in securing these rights in an effort to protect what we consider to be a very precious business in the line that it is. If any of you are in any doubt that we are the true & legitimate copyright holders, we can produce the legal documentation signed by David Boddington himself & witnessed by Ken Swales.

Regarding the fact that some plans were given as freebies in certain magazines, it would be for that issue only, it doesn't give cart blanche freedom across the board to reproduce them indefinitely.

Anyhow, surely gluing bits of wood together is better than getting into the legal depths of copyright law, is it not?

Eddie.

I think your absolutely right there Eddie looking forward to putting some business your way very soon we will be chatting on the phone this fri or mon

Phil

[WolstonFlyer]

Hi Eddie,

I am going to phone this week and order a plan pack for the Tinker 45", do you have a suitable sized Dural undercarriage that you can supply along with the wheels?

Thanks

[Colin Leighfield]

David, no problem, I hope everything is ok.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 15/10/2013 19:59:46:

Bob, re your experience with the Pushy Cat plan. I think it's young Craig trying too hard. He called me directly on my mobile to ask me if I would like the QEFI supporting feature for £3.99 so I said yes. I've spoken to him before and he's been very helpful. I think it's more likely thoughtlesness than taking advantage deliberately on his part. Hope you didn't completely dismantle him!

No Colin, I did actually remain civil, but I still thought it was being a bit pushy
It was his sidekick Joanne who called, couldn't she have just said why she called in the voicemail? Anyway, it would set a bad precedent to read a manual before diving in, even a build manual...

[Colin Leighfield]

Thanks Bob. You're right of course, I'm just a softy!

[Erfolg]

I can understand Eddies view, and even comprehend why he thinks a hornets nest has been stirred up. After all plans and kits are his business.

My interest is rather more general. I also think I know the answer to my own question. That is the situation is often as clear as mud. I would imagine that few businesses are willing or able to take legal action if someone makes a copy of a drawing for their own use. The cost in time and money are just generally disproportionate to the benefit to take any serious action. So in general terms it is only those who are commercially exploiting the copyright of some one else, that it makes sense to take action.

I do however think it is murky water, where Apple can take action against Samsung for breach of copyright, in that the case of one of their models has sharp corners. Then many of these issues have been batted back and forth in court rooms all round the world. Where in one country Apple wins, in another it is Samsung, then it is the turn of Samsung against Apple. Both having deep pockets, able to lean on various bodies etc. Although most of the cases have been patents.

In the case of the Barnstormer, it is very similar to many other contemporary parasol winged models in shape, so I am guessing it is not the absolute shape. Yet the various Barnstormer models have differed substantially in how they are constructed. So I am supposing that each sub type has its own copyright, as a drawing. Which leads me to a academic question, how different does the detail have to be , to be a new copyright. Again I suspect, unless some one makes a drawing commercially available to this format, we will not know. Even then it would probably take action in a court of law, to obtain a answer, which is uncertain either way. Again like some of the Carl Zeis issues.

I am not advocating that anyone does make copies, or scales up or down a drawing etc. I just think it is of passing interest as a general issue.