Which trainer?

[John C]

Hi Mervyn, I am at Nutt's Corner and fly with Derek.

I got myself Phoenix and used it for about an hour every day while I was learning last summer. I found it had the following advantages:

1. It is excellent for learning the feel of your tranmitter; I discovered that I like to use a neckstrap so that my hands can rest on top of the transmitter with my index fingers and thumbs on the sticks (recommended practice).

2. It gives lots of time to learn to control the plane coming towards you and generally to learn the hand eye conordination required to fly a model. It is great to learn not to hold on the ailerons but just give dabs to start the turn and then how to take off the bank at the end of a turn.

3. Good for learning to balance the elevator and throttle when landing.

4. I later added in wind along the landing strip and then a cross wind to get used to the model crabbing and flying figure 8s in a wind.

I found that the best site for learning is the Flying Field as there are enough trees and hedges for visual reference so you know where you are and after a while you get used to avoiding them too! It is a good idea to set the Camera (in the View menu) to "keep ground in view". The wind compass and Altitude displays are also useful.

I would start with the Hobby Zone Super Cub LP which is very easy and slow and work up through the E-Flite Apprentice 15e, Multiplex Mentor and the Irvine Tutor 40. I found that most of these need up trim and some need a great deal to fly level at half throttle.

It is easiest to land from the right as it is less obstructed by trees and there is more room to line up the plane with the landing strip.

It is not completely realistic (particularly the wind) and the model gets small much quicker than in reality and it can be quite frustrating but another pilot at our club also used Phoenix a lot and he says it helped him greatly too. To get the most out of it requires some discipline to practice on your weaknesses and not just have fun.

Enjoy your Christmas!

John

[IanR]

I agree with what John says except that I can't get on with the "keep ground in view" and "autozoom" functions. For me these are most unrealistic and nothing like standing on the flight line and controlling a real model.

I turn these functions off and then zoom right in to the model, using the mouse wheel, then back off one or two clicks. Of course, the view you get is much narrower and you soon lose sight of the ground etc but, in my opinion, this gives a much more realistic feel.

Ian.

[John C]

I agree with what Ian says about these views being particularly unrealistic. However, I found that when I was learning to land it was useful to keep the ground in view so that I knew where the plane was in relation to the landing strip. Then I got used to flying close to myself and quite low so these issues were not such a problem. Now that I am trying a few aerobatics I will try what Ian suggests.

[mervyn robb]

Hi John thanks for introducing yourself, sorry it took me a while to reply.

Got Phoenix loaded tonight after getting slightly confused in the calibration stage by some of the terminology. Wasn't sure what combined pitch meant so just bypassed it. Did something wrong the first attempt as every time the plane took off it very quickly nose dived to the left and wrecked itself before I could correct anything! Anyhow recalibrated it and it works fine now. Seems very realistic and there is a tendency to 'mess about' so will have to watch that.

I note your comments Ian about unrealistic views but will try them to see what I think. It would seem a good idea to keep the ground in view as in reality you can at least sense its presence even if it isn't in view all the time.

merv

[John C]

Hi Merv, sorry for my slow response - I've been away over Christmas.

I hope you are finding Phoenix useful. At our club I found that until I could fly solo is was hard to get more than three flights per visit as my instructor needed time to fly as well. After I was happy to take off and land on my own I was able to ask others to stand with me and I got up to six flights. However, now I have my A Certificate I can fit in eight flights per visit. During those early stages Phoenix was great for getting simulated flying time which helped a lot. It is also good when the weather is bad for keeping up the practice. It has many deficiencies and cannot beat real flying time but it is a valuable addition to it.

Like you it took me several goes to calibrate my transmitter.

Let us know how things are going and do ask it you have any problems.

John

[mervyn robb]

Hi John

Have been using Phoenix for a week now and enjoying it. I love the take off as it seems so easy.

Have opted for keeping the ground in view which I think is the realistic scenario. I must say I find the flying fairly easy and the transmitter is very responsive so I hope I am not gaining false confidence! Its quite hard to judge what side of the hedges I am on and have had quite a few catastrophes thinking I was safe, only to plough into a tree or the hedge!

Have attempted a few landings with a couple of lucky successes but mainly being smashed into smithereens. Its not easy. I tend to get over the landing strip somehow then cut the revs and glide in, maybe with a bit of elevator and a little throttle at the last minute. Its very satisfying but difficult.

Its all too easy to go looping the loop and messing about so have tried to control this. Flying basic large rectangles with gentle manoeuvres seems the best way of getting the feel of things in an unhurried way.

Am hoping that my Sporsman model will be fairly subdued and a bit less rushed than the simulator. I don't think I have calibrated Phoenix to incorporate the VIRTUAL INSTRUCTOR on the transmitter and don't really know how to do this. There is something in the instructions about flicking programmable switches but don't understand this. Certainly when I switch on the INSTRUCTOR the Phoenix plane doesn't seem to respond as it should. Probably, as I say, due to not being calibrated in,

Must put the goggles on and have another go

Thanks

MERV

Must go and get the goggles on and have another go

[mervyn robb]

Hi John

Have been using Phoenix for a week now and enjoying it. I love the take off as it seems so easy.

Have opted for keeping the ground in view which I think is the realistic scenario. I must say I find the flying fairly easy and the transmitter is very responsive so I hope I am not gaining false confidence! Its quite hard to judge what side of the hedges I am on and have had quite a few catastrophes thinking I was safe, only to plough into a tree or the hedge!

Have attempted a few landings with a couple of lucky successes but mainly being smashed into smithereens. Its not easy. I tend to get over the landing strip somehow then cut the revs and glide in, maybe with a bit of elevator and a little throttle at the last minute. Its very satisfying but difficult.

Its all too easy to go looping the loop and messing about so have tried to control this. Flying basic large rectangles with gentle manoeuvres seems the best way of getting the feel of things in an unhurried way.

Am hoping that my Sporsman model will be fairly subdued and a bit less rushed than the simulator. I don't think I have calibrated Phoenix to incorporate the VIRTUAL INSTRUCTOR on the transmitter and don't really know how to do this. There is something in the instructions about flicking programmable switches but don't understand this. Certainly when I switch on the INSTRUCTOR the Phoenix plane doesn't seem to respond as it should. Probably, as I say, due to not being calibrated in,

Must put the goggles on and have another go

Thanks

MERV

Must go and get the goggles on and have another go

[John C]

Sounds like you are getting on well with the simulator.

Yes, crashed into the hedges and trees a lot myself thinking I was in front of them. The only clue to distance is the size of the plane which makes it hard to judge. I think that I now generally try and keep above the line of the top of the hedges and trees until I can see the shadow of the plane on the ground and then I know for sure where the plane is.

Another useful thing to practice is flying slowly and learning to recognise (relative to the angle of the fuselage to the horizontal) how close to stalling the plane is. This helps with bringing the plane in to land slowly but under control. The standard advice that you should control the flying speed with the elevator stick position and the rate of descent with the throttle is very good and can be practiced on the simulator. You can use this to fly just above the landing strip and control your height up and down without landing. All good practice.

I have not tried the Virtual Instructor - I should have a look at this.

The biggest problem I had with flying my real model was that my muscles got very tense, especially my hands and arms which is not good for control! It took me a lot of flights before I could relax. Other learners at the club have the same problem.

[John C]

Hi Merv

I realise now that Virtual Instructor is a feature of the radio gear in your Glassair Sportsman to reduce the risk of crashes and is not on my Phoenix sim!

[mervyn robb]

Happy New Year John and the rest of you. Sorry I should have pointed that out.

Don't know if I can incorporate it into Phoenix yet. Maybe I don't need it and can live dangerously in the virtual world. Must enquire of the manufacturer

Merv

[John C]

Happy New Year Merv and all on this thread!

It might be better not to use Virtual Instructor in the simulator (if this is possible with your gear) so that you can see the consequence of every control movement you make. I am convinced that the brain is subconciously learning the relationship between hand movements and the response of the plane. After 5 months of flying I realise that I don't have to think which way to move the controls but only where I want the plane to go next. A good feeling. It all falls apart sometimes but general it seems to be working.

[mervyn robb]

Yes John I agree I think its good to experience the worst with the simulator and see the consequences as you say.

I know the simulator isn't aware of the virtual instructor because if I set the instructor on the transmitter Phoenix does not respond. I am happy enough to leave it that way. I can't wait to get out to the site but the winds seem continuously high at the moment especially at Portrush where I have been for the last 10 days. I love photographing the wild seas up here and continuously try to get my pics on BBC weather - keep a look out for my shots. Had one on Boxing Day of two surfers riding a big wave at East Strand'

Merv

[John C]

I love watching big waves - I used to do a bit of canoe surfing and windsurfing in modest waves. I will look out for your photos on BBC Weather (I presume NI).

This is a difficult time of the year to learn to fly being so wet and windy. I did not want more than 5 mph for my early flights and 10 mph later on when practicing for my A Certificate.

[mervyn robb]

Yes John BBC NI.

There is little comfort in trying to fly at this time of year and I have to think of my mentors feelings and availability also. Will just have to be patient and wait for a nice calm day.

MERV

[nasher 546]

I like mervyn robb have decided to take up the hobby. It is something I have wanted to do for some time however, with work commitments I juts never got round to it. I bought my DX6i transmitter last year and I have spent considerable time on a simulator. I now feel ready to join a club and be taught how to fly properly. My local shop owner has suggested a Riot to me as a starter plane. He has stated that with reduced throws it will allow me to learn how to fly and then once competent it will allow me to then have some fun with the plane. Can anyone tell me if this is the right way to go?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[mervyn robb]

Hi Nasher and welcome and a Happy New Year.

You seem to have done a lot of practice and feel that you are ready for the Riot. However, I went through all this discussion over the last month or two and I have opted for a very conservative option the Glasair Sportsman Trainer which seems to get good reviews. Some felt that the Riot was not quite tame enough for me as a total novice. Ideally I would have gone for the Eflite Apprentice s15E with its SAFE technology but it wasn't due into the UK till end 2013. By that time I had already bought and assembled the Sportsman and now am waiting for a nice calm day. These UK wide storms are causing havoc with all of us I'm sure.

Good luck with your Riot

Merv

[Gixerbenten]

Hi NASHER. A mate of mine has just started flying. After countless hours on a sim he felt he was ready for a RIOT. I thought it may be a bit much for him, he proved me wrong for about 6 mins before smashing it to bits. We did not have a buddy lead tho, he was on his own. After picking the peices up he said it was just too fast and sensitve. It's now been glued back together and just waiting for the weather now

.

[scott finnie]

Hi all after thoroughly flying the Eflite apprentice SAFE over the last 2 weeks in both calm and very windy conditions i thoroughly stand by this as possibly one of the best trainers ( yes im eating my own words ) I have not been able to make the SAFE technology fail me at all and for small LOS aerial videos ? In beginner mode in a light breeze you can let go of the controls and it will fly and stabilize itself which you have to try to believe! In beginner mode we have tested it with a few non flyers and although at times they start finding it hard to come back towards themselves and hitting full throttle all the time they manage to fly very well, to the stage we had someone who hasnt flown before almost manage an acceptable landing on there 2nd flight. It was at that point i thought that EFLITE might be onto something. All in all i stand by the Aprrentice, in expert mode it an come out its shell and although not the fastest bird in the fleet its certainly the most fun and easy to fly in a scale manner! For the price of just over £200 its superb considering it comes with a simple yet fantastic transmitter and all top branded flight components . Buy one when you can since i can see this becoming popular soon!

Happy Flying,

Scott

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

nasher - if you are on a buddy lead the Riot will be fine for you. Yes on full throws and full power it will be a bit of a handful at this stage, but with the throws at minimum and a good club instructor "on the switch" you'll be fine.

Personally I think this is very good way to go. Except for very nervous learners I feel that really basic trainers are a bit of a waste of money and even counterproductive if you have access to instruction. Yes, they are great for the first 3 or 4 flights, but after that they can actually hamper learning because they are too stable - too reluctant to turn.

To illustrate my point consider two extremes: a basic classical high wing trainer, and a fully aerobatic model - like an Sbach say. What's the difference in flying them? Well aside from speed and control sensitivity, the main difference is that on the Sbach if you put in some aileron the model rolls, hold in the aileron and it continues to roll. Take the aileron off and it stops rolling - but it doesn't "right itself" - it stays in the banked position where you put it. It has no tendency to sort itself out - it just goes where you point it. With this aircraft the aileron doesn't control how much you roll (the smallest amount of aileron will make you roll indefinitely) But it does control how fast you roll. Large aileron input you roll very quickly, small aileron input you roll very slowly. But in both cases you roll.

In contrast the trainer is completely different. Put a little aileron in and it rolls - but only so far. Once it reaches maybe 30 degrees bank it stops rolling. If you want more roll you need to add more aileron. If you take the aileron out the model will magically unbank itself! So this is very different - the amount of aileron now governs how far you roll.

The difference in feel between these two aircraft is most apparent when you turn. With the Sbach you put in some aileron, to establish a banking angle, then almost completely take it out and turn with just elevator. When the turn is over you have to use opposite aileron to unbank the aircraft. But with the trainer it is completely different. You put in some aileron then add elevator, but you don't take the aileron out. If you did the plane would unbank itself and come out of the turn. So a trainer has to be pro-actively held in the turn.

Now these are two aeroplanes at the extreme ends of the spectrum. One is stable to fault, the other is completely aerobatic and equally happy in just about any orientation. Most models lie somewhere on a spectrum between these two points - ie with some dihedral they have some self-righting tendencies but nowhere near as powerful as the trainer's.

So how does this impact learners? Well for the first 3-6 flights the learner definitely benefits from the trainer's high stability. It more like driving a car - you turn the wheel - it turns - you have to hold the wheel over to continue the turn etc. But I would suggest that after the initial confidence building period this over stability actually gives the learner a false impression of what its like to fly a more "normal" model. So many times I've seen learners take up their second model - having apparently mastered flying with the trainer - only to almost roll it inverted in the first turn - because they leave the aileron in!

So, I'm a big fan of; as long as you have an instructor on a buddy lead for the first flights go for a first model with "growing room" - something that will fly more like a "normal" model. OK initially it might be a bit more difficult - but you have your instructor on the lead ready to step in if you get into difficulties. Such a model will grow with your increasing skill and will ultimately, I believe, enable you to reach a competent solo standard quicker.

So, go for the Riot, assuming you have an instructor on a buddy lead, and I think you'll find that is a good move.

BEB

PS Before any one comments - no, this isn't carte blanche to make your first model an Sbach or a Spitfire etc. I said you wanted "growing room", not a pair of shoes 5 sizes to big for you!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/01/2014 11:16:33

[John C]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/01/2014 11:09:15:

nasher - if you are on a buddy lead the Riot will be fine for you. Yes on full throws and full power it will be a bit of a handful at this stage, but with the throws at minimum and a good club instructor "on the switch" you'll be fine.

Personally I think this is very good way to go. Except for very nervous learners I feel that really basic trainers are a bit of a waste of money and even counterproductive if you have access to instruction. Yes, they are great for the first 3 or 4 flights, but after that they can actually hamper learning because they are too stable - too reluctant to turn.

I have just come through the learning process in the last 5 months with a Seagull E-Pioneer which has 2.5 degrees dihedral which is in between a "really basic trainer" and the Riot with no dihedral. Unfortunately my instructor did not want to use the buddy box I had bought so I had to learn the old way with him grabbing the TX when I got into difficulty - far from idea!

The E-Pioneer will spiral into the ground if you hold in more than a small amount of aileron so I learnt a lot flying that plane but nearly crashed it on a couple of occasions. It is only now holding me back. I agree with BEB that if one is able to fly with a buddy lead a Riot allows you to progress further with the one plane. As it happens I am now buying a Riot to take me to the next stage learning aerobatic flying.

As a learner you do not know what aptitude you will have for learning to fly an RC aircraft. When asking at the club at the start about which plane to buy to learn on I got the following range of opinions from very able pilots:

• 3 channel plane with lots of dihedral because learning to fly is difficult - you don't know in advance how difficult you will find it and you don't want to be discouraged and you should make it as easy for yourself as possible.
• 4 channel trainer with some dihedral because most people manage to learn on these.
• Buy a Riot (which has no dihedral) and you will be able to progress much further with it (two brothers at the club taught themselves to fly with a Riot by taking off on a farm track and landing in a field with long grass).

I chose the middle option which worked out fine for me.

My E-Pioneer has taking a hammering with many heavy landings and a cartwheel up the tarmac from catching a wing tip on landing in a brisk cross wind. This has a plus side as I am not too protective about the plane and I am flying it in stronger winds which is great for learning. Nothing wrong with having an easier plane to start with, just a more gradual learning curve.

[nasher 546]

Guys,

Firstly, a belated Happy New Year to you all.

Secondly, many thanks for the advice, you are all fonts of knowledge. I really do appreciate what you have all advised. As a novice I thought I would be inundated with information I did not understand. That has not been the case and because the club I am going to join has excellent instructors and 'buddy boxes' I have decided to opt for the RIOT. I will of course let you know how I get on and progress. As Mervyn quite rightly points out, so frustrating for all at the moment with the weather we are having. Once again thanks Guys, I very much look forward to being part of your forum.

Kind Regards,

Paul.

Edited By nasher 546 on 07/01/2014 15:22:47

[Peter Beeney]

Just to add a bit more of the hands on experience to the thread, and also reading about the models getting broken when landing, when I’m instructing I always try and get the student into the landing circuit configuration as soon as possible; but that’s not necessarily landing back on all the time, of course. I’ve always used the buddy system, I definitely would be reluctant to go back to ‘passing the tx.’ I’ve always thought that the landing circuit is in itself a very good instructor anyway, such as developing orientation, for a start. Getting very familiar with flying close to the ground; and accurate flying down the centre of the runway. The obvious effect of the wind, too. Throttle control, to the exact revolution when required, co-ordinated with gentle rudder movements; also fast and slow flying; and then actually realising eventually that the model is tied on the end of the aerial, and it will respond faithfully to whatever small or large stick movements are thrown at it. At that point the pilot now begins to fly the model, as opposed to the model flying the pilot. If a pilot can do a precisely controlled approach and overshoot every time he’s not going to have much bother with actually touching down. It’s also good practise for concentration, something that beginners tend to need/use in spades!

My feeling has always been that if a student gets to the point where he’s quite happy in the landing circuit, he won’t have any problems going off and trying other things, simply because he knows he can soon get back to the patch and familiar ground. One manoeuver to try is to gradually lower the model’s flying height over the ground as low as you can, but read that as gradually, and then just potter around.

I’d agree about a Riot being an ideal trainer, but I’d certainly not reduce any controls throws to less than what’s recommended. I always use full throws anyway, I don’t think a full size instructor would want to reduce his control movements; and the basic ‘out of the box’ model can be taken further for progressive aerobatics, etc.

Trying to figure out why landings are considered to be problematic, is it because in general people don’t practise enough? It seems that in general there is only one per flight, and get that over as soon as possible, as well. There is a great deal of satisfaction to be gleaned from a perfect landing, 3 out of 3 times, and as I’ve always said, the model never gets broken till it hits the ground, so this is the very bit you really do need to be in total control of…

Happy Landings…

PB

Edited By Peter Beeney on 07/01/2014 15:56:14

[mervyn robb]

Hi Scott. As I said sooner I would have liked the Apprentice but horizon said it would be at least December 2013 before it would arrive form China, that is the s15e model. Is it now available? A bit late for me now I suppose.

Merv

[mervyn robb]

Nasher with your Riot you'll be able to run rings round me with my sedate old Sportsman in no time! Sounds like the Riot may be my next model - If i get that far.

Good luck and have a riot!

Merv