Police Helicopter Crash

[scott finnie]

Thoughts go out to the crew of the helicopter, there families and anyone injured in last nights crash, sadly at this moment the crew are un accounted for though from the many eye witnesses the pilot done a fantastic autorotation and flare before landing on top of the pub, it was only then the roof gave way, they where only a matter of 50 feet from the Clyde which is what they must of been aiming for , many said they heard the helicopter then silence as it fell from the sky, theres many stories circulating but either way i hope that theres no or not many fatalities and best of luck to all tonight

[John F]

Agreed, lets hope it isn't as devastating as initially feared.

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[Paul Marsh]

I stayed in the Holiday Inn earlier this year, which is opposite the bar. I thought I recognised the street and the bar. Can remember that the area is very busy on Friday nights, as my room was overlooking the street.

So far 3 have been confirmed dead, Problem that there are quite tall buildings and trying to avoid them with a decaying machine would've been hard to set down. Looks like they did land on the roof, but collapsed due to weight of the helicopter.

[malcolm woodcock 1]

At a time like this I hate to state historic evidence but from a flight safety point of view there has never been a successful autogyration recovery no matter how often it's been practised in exercises. My thought and prayers go out to those who lost loved ones.

[Ross Clarkson]

Posted by malcolm woodcock 1 on 30/11/2013 13:46:32:

At a time like this I hate to state historic evidence but from a flight safety point of view there has never been a successful autogyration recovery no matter how often it's been practised in exercises. My thought and prayers go out to those who lost loved ones.

Not quite sure what you mean there Malcolm, can you elaborate?

As for the events, completely tragic and extremely sad. R.I.P to all involved.

[Highlander]

I am not sure where on earth you get that idea from Malcolm, there have been hundreds of successful autorotations in commercial service,( not practice ones) I myself have done two.

The accident is certainly a tragedy but speculation should be on hold till the A.I.B put out their initial findings.

James.

[malcolm woodcock 1]

I might have been out of the loop for awhile but the information I have is that there was no recorded auto rotations, in anger, successfully completed, majority of failures where from the gearbox which allowed no recovery. Hope I'm wrong on this but you wouldn't get me up in one.

[Ross Clarkson]

Do you mean on type Malcolm?

[John F]

Sorry Malcolm but there have been many autorotation landings over the years. Even Wikipedia manages to give two confirmed quotes.

I was in Bosnia when a Norwegian Bell Huey came in to land on autorotation. It landed very well, considering, a few sparks from the skids confirmed its arrival but everyone was fine. I missed seeing the landing but I was the medic there and we attended the incident.  There was little, if any, damage to the heli and the crew were absolutely fine.

There are lots of events listed on Google:

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Edited By John F on 01/12/2013 08:10:09

[Dane Crosby]

Malcolm, in training we used to throttle back the engine in Gazelle and Squirrel helicopters. Once done, one was committed to a landing especially in the Gazelle as there was no cyclic throttle, just a lever on the roof panel. One couldn't take the hand off the cyclic to attempt a throttle up for obvious reasons.

I have also suffered a double husher in a Sea King and landed successfully. Many people have managed this in many types. Autorotation when correctly handled is a stable flight regime albeit in a downwards direction.

Some helos need immediate control inputs when an engine failure happens - especially the popular,no names, little piston engined helo. This has claimed a few incidents due to the low energy in the head.

The pilot of the aircraft in the Glasgow disaster would have been very au fait with autorotations so we must wait for the Crash investigators to discover the facts. RIP all, a sad time.

[malcolm woodcock 1]

As I said I've been out of the loop for some time and glad to be corrected. I still wouldn't have a go in a helicopter unless my life depended on it. Learn't to fly on fixed wing and I'll stick with that.

[Paul Marsh]

When I was in the R44 with my dad, when going along, you are always looking where to land, even though there is no emergency, being prepared for the unexpected. Trying to choose a route with possible landing sites is incorporated into your route, especially on single-engine craft.

The R22 has a very light rotor head, as I noticed when I was with my dad, and concerned about how little inertia it carries. Still I fly, as flying is risk, but come to accept it, as long as procedures are followed to lessen the risk.

Edited By Paul Marsh on 01/12/2013 18:19:06

[Anthony Scott 2]

I, too, am a survivor of a successful autorotation following engine failure, & I am by no means unique. Malcolm is probably correct in saying there have been few or even no survivors from gearbox failures but one would not expect to be able to auto rotate in that circumstance or in a tail rotor failure!

Malcolm expresses a "preference" for fixed wing flying but wings do occasionally come off with equally fatal results, not everyone can do a Neil Williams!!

[Highlander]

Actually Anthony, standard procedure in the event of tail rotor failure is. enter autorotation,! No torque, no need for the TR.

I was at Hullavington in I think 68 when Niel pulled off that amazing approach and landing, he was an inspiration to everyone who flew but was finally beaten by a casa 111 in a rush to get home. What a waste.

regards, James.

[Gazza58]

It is on my mind that the Met Police India 99 crashed following failure of the tail rotor. The landing speed was quoted as being quite fast, needed to keep the aircraft straight and all crew walked away. IIRC the aircraft was written off but happily the crew flew again. I believe that tail rotor failure is not an irrecoverable situation as far as a landing is concerned as the heli flew some distance before setting down albeit at speed.

Gazza

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by John F on 01/12/2013 08:06:57:

I was in Bosnia when a Norwegian Bell Huey came in to land on autorotation. It landed very well, considering, a few sparks from the skids confirmed its arrival but everyone was fine. I missed seeing the landing but I was the medic there and we attended the incident. There was little, if any, damage to the heli and the crew were absolutely fine.

Edited By John F on 01/12/2013 08:10:09

According to the book, Chickenhawk by Vietnam veteran Robert Mason, a party trick with the Huey was to shut down the engine and use the energy stored in the extremely heavy rotor blades to take off, do a 360 degree rotation and land again

I remember hearing a police helicopter making an almighty clatter when I was in a customer's premises next to Hatfield Airfield sometime around 1990 - a little later I found out that a tail rotor control failure meant that they had to do a high speed approach and running landing to control yaw - happily, although it rolled onto its side during the ground run, all on board survived - without significant injury if I recall correctly.

[Gazza58]

Hi Martin, I do believe that we are both talking about the same incident. I am sure that the incident occurred in a grass field in the Hatfield area and the aircraft rolled onto its side. I seem to remember that the pilots were contracted out from commercial airlines for this work. British Caledonian comes to mind.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It ended up off the runway on the grass and on it's side, clearly visible from the road near Smallford. If my memory is correct, they were unable to alter the tail rotor setting but found that it would fly straight at 100 knots or so and completed a high speed touchdown on the runway. I suspect they flew a curved approach to touch down at as great an angle to the runway as possible to stay on it as long as possible...but that's just speculation based on where I was and how loud it sounded over the top of the building!

Edited By Martin Harris on 02/12/2013 15:43:53

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

...a lot longer ago than I estimated - yours could have been that one - or maybe the one damaged at Lippitts Hill?

G-META Bell 222A c/n 47028 delivered 26 November 1980, (crashed Lippitts Hill May 1987 and repaired), retired January 1996, to Portugal for EMS duties

G-METB Bell 222A c/n 47055 delivered July 1981, (crashed Hatfield 1984 and rebuilt), retired November 1993, to Portugal for EMS duties

[Phil Green]

I noticed as they craned the Glasgow heli out, the remains of the rotors were visibly at positive pitch, so unless they moved on impact, does this suggest it wasnt in autorotation???

 

Edited By Phil Green on 03/12/2013 00:47:51

[scott finnie]

I believe they managed to land safely on the roof of the pub and then literally as the rotors stopped it fell through, it could show that they had relaxed about landing safely before the roof gave way, such a horrible chain of events. I was in glasgow today and again tomorrow and its a very airy feeling throughout the city, prayers go out to the flight crew , there loved ones and all others lost and hurt in this tragic incident just shy of christmas

[Ausferret]

Posted by Phil Green on 03/12/2013 00:41:46:

I noticed as they craned the Glasgow heli out, the remains of the rotors were visibly at positive pitch, so unless they moved on impact, does this suggest it wasnt in autorotation???

Edited By Phil Green on 03/12/2013 00:47:51

I should have thought at the end of an autorotation the main rotors should be in positive pitch (maximum probably).

[Piers Bowlan]

Regarding an earlier post and comments about gearbox failures and auto-rotations. I worked for Air Gregory Helicopters at Denham in 1977. One of our Hughs 269s had a main gear box failure where the crown gear attached to the bottom of the main rotor shaft disintegrated. There was no more drive to the rotor blades from the engine of course but the pilot made a successful auto-rotation into a field despite the gearbox failure. Incidentally, the same pilot went on to have two more engine failures in the Hughs, all with successful auto-rotations and landings.

[Ross Clarkson]

Posted by scott finnie on 03/12/2013 00:54:34:

I believe they managed to land safely on the roof of the pub and then literally as the rotors stopped it fell through, it could show that they had relaxed about landing safely before the roof gave way, such a horrible chain of events. I was in glasgow today and again tomorrow and its a very airy feeling throughout the city, prayers go out to the flight crew , there loved ones and all others lost and hurt in this tragic incident just shy of christmas

Given the extensive damage to the cab, i do not think this is likely.

As much as it pains me to say, i feel it has entered that building at a very high rate of descent.

[Ross Clarkson]

Regarding transmission failures.

Certain gearbox failures are survivable as described above, however if the gearbox siezes you are unfortunately just a passenger in your own one way trip to earth.