Is the Trex 450L Dominator 3S a good helicopter for a beginner?

[Ben M]

Hi all,

On other thread I have commented that I am planning to get an Align Trex 450L Dominator helicopter and someone very kindly has commented that may be that helicopter is not for a beginner. I though this discussion deserves a dedicated thread so here I am.

I am going to talk about helicopters but the concepts can be applied also to planes.

I think that as beginners there are two different approaches to choose the first bird to start with.

1. The first approach and may be the most common would be to choose an inexpensive helicopter to start with and after you learn to fly it you can get other a little bit better. Later on, if your skill improve enough and you fancy to get into the aerobatics world you can get other more powerful helicopter. This approach is good because you start by investing little money so you minimize the risk of losing a lot of money due to accidents or because you change your mind and decide not to keep with the hobby.
2. The second approach may be getting a high level helicopter and a programmable radio so that you can set it up to fly very gentle so that a big movement on the stick do not make a dangerous movement on the helicopter. This way to learn is good if you are willing to commit with the hobby and you spend the time required to learn all what it is needed.

I have chosen the second path and my reasons are as follow:

• I like very much the helicopters and especially I feel so much attraction for learning to assemble them. Normally beginners helicopters are sold assembled as “Ready to Fly” (RTF) or “Bind aNd Fly” (BNF).
• I am quite constant and I think I can learn to assemble and to fly a CCPM helicopter. Even if it is complicated. I may need help but it is doable.
• Small CCPM helicopters are lighter and less stable than bigger ones. As big is the helicopter as stable and easy to fly it is. The problem with the biggest helicopters is that are much more expensive if you crash them and also you need more space at home for them (and their accessories). The 450 size is middle size helicopter.
• I am interested also in all the technical things related to the helicopter: batteries charging and maintenance, helicopter and radio setup, issues that may arise when flying …
• I like scaling and I have the sensation that fuselages are designed for helicopters of size 450 or bigger and is more difficult to get them for smaller helicopters. I’m not sure about this and I want to do some more research. Comments are welcome.
• I want to avoid having to store or sell helicopters every time I want to improve my level. I prefer to have the ability of changing the settings of my radio making my helicopter more technical to fly. This way the same helicopter can follow me through a long path.
• I think that the amount of money you may spend with the second approach may be less in long term in the case of someone who wants to reach a good level of flying skill (even without doing aerobatics). With the first approach you spend less at the starting phase but if you end up buying a good helicopter after buying other smaller then you spend more. The only thing that may balance the two learning paths (in terms of cost) is if you have many crashes as the cost of fixing a bigger helicopter is higher and bigger (and heavier) helicopters get more damaged in any accident than smaller ones.

After evaluating all this pros and cons the last thing I though was which brand and model to choose. I decided by Align and by the Trex 450L Dominator because:

• It is a well-known brand so it is easy to get information, spares and accessories.
• The model seems to be very developed and their designers have so much experience doing it easy to assemble with very well studied manual. I think it may be easier to assemble than other models.
• The quality of all materials and gears is good, so supposing it is set up correctly it should perform well and any issue I may while flying it will be due to my inexperience and not due to the helicopter.

All my thoughts are based on the contents I have read about the subject, not on my own experience (as I don’t have it). All opinions from expert pilots a technicians are more than welcome. If you can share your first experiences that would be grate.

Thanks in advance.

Ben

Edited By Ben M on 11/02/2014 22:45:40

[GrahamC]

Hi Ben. I'm relatively new to helis, and am enjoying learning to fly them.

Which ever way you go... Here's an idea. Grab a Blade Nano, or MCPX v2 (Still plenty in the shops) I've read that you are buying/have bought a DX8 and either will bind to that. If you shop around they can be had for £70-£80 and they are a great learning tool becasue they are so robust and small enough to fly anywhere. It's a relatively small outlay compared to the cost of the helicopter you have in mind.

If you try something with a Nano and it goes wrong it will cost nothing most of the time, but it will teach you are the control inputs and enable you to practice hovering, nose in etc at very low risk. It's also of course much lower risk to you as you are starting out.

Thats what I've been doing. I can loop and roll any heli on the simulator. I can loop my MCPX now. It will be a while before I try it with my bigger heli!

The Nano is more robust than the MCPX and now easily and cheaply upgraded to brushless as you improve - which I am told turns it into a bit of a beast!

Just an idea!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

you do your own thing Ben

bigger is more stable when you have a breeze to contend with

breakages cost more, but if you can afford it no problem

orientation is easier with a bigger heli

I learnt with a Raptor 50, very stable

you can spend a lot of money keep upgrading heli's

you need help trimming your heli when its built, you need to know its you and not the heli, if things are not going well

forget scale bodies till you have learnt, you will break it learning

as you said you can soften the responses using your transmitter, get it built then get help setting it up in flight

good luck

[Wiltshire Flyer]

My first helicopter was a a small lightweight job called Twister, it had full function control and was fun.

Actually I think it was the Twister sport I forget.... But the pro's I found were that I could fly indoors so the weather wasn't an issue, and yes it was twitchy but it taught me alot about ground effect etc because it was so susceptible to it being so light.

I then bought a slightly larger helicopter, and the difference was immense but not in terms of flight physics but in that I was prepared for most situations.

This larger helicopter felt much more stable and less susceptible to interference forces, but when something tried to catch me off guard I was usually ready for it and flew very well.

Now I'm not saying the way you wish to begin is wrong but the above is my own experience and I am glad I did it that way as a replacement part for a small helicopter is cheaper than for a larger one so that when you do upgrade you may be less likely to need to order spare parts so readily.

Another great tool for learning to fly helis is a good simulator, doesn't matter what you fly or crash.. No spare parts required!

Best of luck

[Dave Bran]

Five year experience on Helis, forty plus on fixed wing. Own currently 30 plus Helis. Nano to 91 powered 3D. Run a school club training 11 plus year olds to fly Helis.

Copy what WF says above, except I'll nail flag to mast and say without apology that a 450 is not the best first choice!!

Briefly:-

1. The TRex 450 is neither one thing nor another, it is above the size/weight that many Indoor Events allow, yet in practise is not very wind or even breeze capable, and no matter how set up they are (relatively) very nervous beasts to learn with. They don't like lower headspeeds and when (not if) they tip over while learning, a lot of the fragile hardware will be trashed.

2. There is no longer any hard direct link between size/weight and stability, it depends on the particular make/model and setup, for example an EFlite Blade 130x can be set up to be more wind capable that any 450 (relative, it still won't come anywhere near a 30), is light enough to survive more punishment, and the spares are stocked widely and so easily obtained.

3. You do not say where you will be flying, so I will presume a club. Who flies Helis there? What do they fly?

4. You do not say you are limited to EP. There is IMO no doubt at all that say a Raptor 30 or even better a late cheaply obtainable quality model, the Hirobo Shuttle (pref in at least Plus, preferably Plus+2 form) is a FAR FAR better learning tool. Do not make the mistake that bigger is automatically more costs, I have a superb Shuttle (one of five!) bought with every possible upgrade, most nothing more than cosmetic as the std product is well made and quite expensive so it cost all new far more than £1000), reliable and easy to use when set up so, yet it can do 3D so is still fun for me, and I paid..............wait for it.................£150 ready to fly with £65 FASST receiver. Two years on I have put one £10 tail drive pulley on it!! Good parts are available secondhand from EBay (Eddie's Heli Bits, no connection, but happy user when rebuilding cheaply bought s/h models) and you will NOT be replacing lots of parts due to wear out/failures, only after crashes as the excellent build quality of the parts minimises what will be needed.

It's my goto chassis for putting into scale bodies, where you really don't want to have to take it out again!!

[Allan Bennett]

I agree with bits of what everyone's said so far My learning route was a couple of years on a Twister Bell 47, which allowed me to learn the stick responses indoors with very little repair cost -- quite a few blades, a couple of shafts, and a couple of motors.

I was then almost persuaded by a fellow club member to get a T-Rex 450, but he disappeared for a while and while he was gone I decided to go for a 500 instead, because of its capability in windy weather. Turns out that was a good move, for I was able to get in some hovering practice on windy days that grounded more-experienced 450 flyers, and even most of our fixed-wing flyers, finding a spot in the lee of a hedge, and staying close to the ground.

3D-capable helis can certainly be tamed for use by a beginner. When I built mine, I had it checked and trimmed by an experienced flyer, who tamed it down enough for me. I was able to take off the training gear after four or five hovers, but it was several months before I stopped crashing -- the usual damage was blades, main gear, and tail boom. Having a belt-driven tail drive helped because a bent boom didn't damage the belt or tail gears. Having hopefully passed the crashing stage, I've converted to torque-tube drive after a belt wore out, but that has the disadvantage that even a minor ground strike with the tail rotor has the potential to strip the drive gear.

[Paul Marsh]

I bought a Blade 450 from a model shop that one guy bought from somewhere else , but he never flew helis before. I think someone flew it very briefly and scared the out of him - also his wife ordered him to get rid of it NOW!

As a result, he sold the Heli, brand new for £150, which I snapped up. I believe he went and got a small co-axial heli. The blade flies well, but the head speed can make someone scared. Also not very forgiving, if you do a hard landing, very low blade/boom clearence, so anything less than a kiss landing will render your blades/tailboom/main shaft and other bits reduced to scrap.

Edited By Paul Marsh on 12/02/2014 18:25:03

[Ben M]

Hi guys,

Wow, you are making me think a lot. Your arguments are very good. I have been researching a little bit about all the helicopters you mentioned. Almost all your comments are about learning to fly the helicopter, and not about the assembling. And all are about bigger or smaller helicopters. None has used or recommend a 450 size. That makes me doubt so much. Thanks to all for your help. I appreciate it.

The think I don’t like about small helicopters is that they come already assembled. My main interest is in the assembling. It seems that only the bigger helicopters come ask kits to be assembled.

I’ve got other constraints to bear in mind. One of them is that I have no car so I need to carry the helicopter to the flying field somehow. The bigger it is the worse. Also the space at home is an issue. That is why I don’t want to end up with a collection of helicopters, radios and other associated equipment. I prefer to by one gear for every single subject that works when I am beginner and when I improve my skill. Any way I do not intend to become a master at the flying field. For me flying gently is just fine as my attention will be in the performance of the equipment, telemetry and those kind of things.

I didn’t decide what flying field I will go to fly. I want to visit those that are accessible for me (by public transport) and I will decide.

I’ve got the sensation that most of the people fly planes instead of helicopters. I don’t know how easy will be to have access to people who can help me. That is one of the reason why I chose a known brand.

Dave, your knowledge is overwhelming for a beginner like me. You made very good points on your post. I’m sure you can make fly anything with your knowledge.

This are my thoughts now:

• I have very little knowledge about spare and technical specs. Trying to fix an issue by myself is very difficult. I wouldn’t dare to get a cheap and big helicopter from an unknown brand if I cannot easily get videos and documentation about assembling, repairing, troubleshooting, and so on. Of course, finding a club will help but I don’t want to relay on that too much as I don’t know how easy will be to get help from an experienced flyer. With that said, I keep thinking that for a beginner like me bigger size also mean more expensive.
• I don’t understand what you, Dave, mean when you say “They don't like lower headspeeds”. Do you mean that the helicopter may get damage if it works at a lower speed that normal? I thought that if it can fly at very high speed it should be very comfortable at lower speed.
• I was thinking also to get a heavy battery (ie 3S 5000 mAh) so that I may use the weight to temper the heli and to get longer flying time.
• The fragility at crashes is something I don’t like at all. And that is a point where all of you, guys, agree. I am not rich and I don’t like wasting money in crashes. My intention was to start training with a simulator and use training gear on the helicopter until I am able to fly properly (it may be very long time). After reading your post and researching about the helis, I am thinking to get a Blade Nano to practice at home. I like very much the idea of playing with it at any moment. It may be a very good tool to complement the simulator before I start flying a bigger bird.

Please feel free to criticize my opinions. I am learning a lot from you. Thanks again.

Ben

[Vecchio Austriaco]

Ben,

the Trex 450 is a fine helicopter, I wouldn't go for any smaller one, it is not only the stability, it is also the visibility. There is no issue with wind, helicopters can fly in higher winds than fixed wing planes (speaking about models).

Transport of a 450 is not a problem, there are cases on the market also bags, but this is also a point where you can save some cash by DIY. When I lived in Italy there was a guy at the field who always brought his Protos plus radio in a homemade case on the back of his motorbike. By the way the Protos is a 500 class and a good bit bigger than the 450.

Go for the standard battery, no need to make the heli heavier, this will not add anything to it's flying characteristics. So 2200 mAh, 3 cells is what you need. Making the heli heavier may also ruin the engine as you will constantly draw a higher current to keep the thing in the air. Also in some situations you will need to lift the heli pretty quick - which will not work if you are at the edge of it's power.

Head speed: A too low head speed will lead to instability - the heli will start to swing its tail to the left and to the right - many people think this is a problem of the gyro or the tail rotor, but even if everything is fine except a low head speed the tail movement will not stop.

Don't believe the "test flown" phrases coming from some of the manufacturers. You need an experienced heli pilot for the set-up, or better a person doing set-up in a professional way. these people will also look for the right head speed! If you have no experience it may well be that you will not have a lot of fun with the heli. A heli set-up in a bad way is a pig to fly.

Spares and technical specs: the best is you have a well known brand, then spares should be easily available and also for a long time. A T-Rex 450 is a well established heli, so spares are not a problem.

Technical specs: the best is you buy a kit and assemble the heli yourself. After that you know every part and where it belongs to, so in case of a crash you can easily identify the spares you need and will be able to fix the machine.

VA, heli department

[Dave Bran]

Hi Again,

OK, lets deal with the knowledge to build/set up aspect. I cannot recommend Hirobo more highly here, their manual are an exercise in perfection.

I bought my first (a Sceadu 50 but the Shuttle is the same quality) in flybable state from a club member, and simply checked it against the manual. However, a later one I'd bought (I have four!!) broke an undercart leg in a very low engine cut while turning away from the patch and therefore difficult autorotation, and the inevitable tip over did for the main shaft, boom, feathering shaft, washout arms, couple of stretched ball joints, etc.

I didn't have to, but as an exercise I completely stripped it back to every part disassembly, even ends off rods, checked it all (finding no wear on a five year old model !!) and reassembled it working STRICTLY to the manual.

Firstly, I found NOTHING missing from the instructions, it all worked to assemble it. I set it to the more nervous 3D setup. It has clearly stated options.

Secondly, I took it to the patch started it, lifted it into a hover and went thumbs off sticks...........and it sat there...........not a single click of trim required then or since (years) !!! THAT is how good the manuals are.

A point on Shuttle versus Sceadu 30. The Sceadu 30 is significantly heavier than a Shuttle, and it needs a good 30 to fly it. I recommend the ringed 36 Irvine. The lighter Shuttle works best on a OS 32. A 32 engined Shuttle can be set ultra stable or will do basic 3D

A benefit of the Sceadu 30 is that theya re cheap and yet by swapping a few parts and an engine swap it can be turned into a 50, and it can be quick modded to "driven tail" for better control in autorotations. Have done this to two of my four.

Just explaining options available.

If going EP and outdoors only I'd not go smaller than 500, the difference is VERY marked. The HK 500 CMT is very well priced and decent standard bought direct from HobbyKing, again, I have four chassis. Can explain detail on fittings if required. It's as good as TRex swappable parts wise. You get no manual but the TRex one is available free download.

Do NOT buy the "HK 500's" being sold elsewhere, they ARE usually lower standard!!

A 500 is about the practical max size to be metal cased for carrying about if that is what you have to do!

[Ben M]

Our mate John Melia has added a comment about this subject on other thread. This is his comment and my answer to him:

Posted by john melia 1 on 14/02/2014 08:07:52:

You will be able to fly it ...eventually ! I did the same with a similar 450 , but please realise it is a massive learning curve , much much more so than fixed wing . Can I suggest you try and make sure you have someone check it over and dumb down the heli for you , also I had a great friend and a good 3d heli pilot on the other end of a buddy lead at all times when I flew my trex 600 nitro . I never ever got to the standard of the guy in the video , but that 3d stuff didnt really float my boat , i liked to fly as a real helicopter would .

Please be prepared to replace a LOT of parts if you are going out and trying to do this alone , phoenix is pretty good for learning the sticks , but again its nothing like fllying the real model . I'm not trying to rain on your parade , just letting you know it isnt easy at the beginning and takes quite a while . Even with my friend i still replaced a lot of parts especially on the 450 as I used to try and fly it when he wasnt there .

The 450 was a lot more twitchy than the 600 too , but thats just because of the size , with the 600 being more stable . Good Luck , let us know how you get on .

My answer:

Thanks John for your opinion and your advice. I will take it in account.

I can't talk about my flying style as I still don't have any . But I think it will be like yours. I like seeing the helicopters flying as real helicopters and not up side down. I think that will be my style.

[Ben M]

Posted by Vecchio Austriaco on 14/02/2014 15:03:20:

Transport of a 450 is not a problem, there are cases on the market also bags, but this is also a point where you can save some cash by DIY. When I lived in Italy there was a guy at the field who always brought his Protos plus radio in a homemade case on the back of his motorbike. By the way the Protos is a 500 class and a good bit bigger than the 450.

My intention is to get an aluminium box. To make one I would need space, tools and materials I don’t have. It will be easier and probably cheaper buy an aluminium one which will be lighter to carry. The protos helicopter seems to be nice. I didn't know it. It seems it is less popular, more expensive (than 450 Dominator) and I didn't see so many videos and information about its assembly and troubleshooting.

Go for the standard battery, no need to make the heli heavier, this will not add anything to it's flying characteristics. So 2200 mAh, 3 cells is what you need. Making the heli heavier may also ruin the engine as you will constantly draw a higher current to keep the thing in the air. Also in some situations you will need to lift the heli pretty quick - which will not work if you are at the edge of it's power.

Head speed: A too low head speed will lead to instability - the heli will start to swing its tail to the left and to the right - many people think this is a problem of the gyro or the tail rotor, but even if everything is fine except a low head speed the tail movement will not stop.

Don't believe the "test flown" phrases coming from some of the manufacturers. You need an experienced heli pilot for the set-up, or better a person doing set-up in a professional way. these people will also look for the right head speed! If you have no experience it may well be that you will not have a lot of fun with the heli. A heli set-up in a bad way is a pig to fly.

Ok, I didn't know all this stuff. I will take it in account. Thanks!

[Ben M]

After playing a bit with the simulator and reading all your comments I understand better the warnings and advices.

By now I have decided to avoid bad temptations by delaying my helicopter shopping. Even needing some time to assemble it.

As you said, the learning curve is going to be high and the helicopter is a dangerous toy. Especially in a flying field where there are other people and birds.

My focus now will be training, training and training. Everything else will come bit by bit.

Thanks a lot for your useful help!

Ben

[Ben M]

The end of the year is a good moment to summarize our achievements. I thought it would be nice to share it with all of you who helped me with your comments.

Finally I got first the Blade Nano CPX to practice at home and later the ALIGN 450L Dominator 3S to practice at the flying field.

The first one was nice because I could "fly" it at home. However it was so unstable that was extremely difficult to keep in the air. It helped me to play with the radio settings and see how important are. The radio settings made the difference between being and not being able to fly it.

After playing with the Nano heli for some time it started to have problems. The main motor started to stop during flight. The shop where I bought it didn´t provide the support I was expecting from them. I read it was a problem with the motor and I saw several people with the same problem. I decided not to spend more money in that heli.

The ALIGN 450L Dominator was much more stable. I would say it was easier to fly than the one on the simulator. I was using Microbeast Flybarless system (from BeastX) with a beginner setting that made the heli very docile.

The main problem I had with the 450L Dominator was the motor. In several occasions the motor stopped while flying and started to do a strange noise. After a lot of research I found out that the 3S version motor (with a 3,200 KV motor) has a problem that makes the motor stop in some circumstances which are difficult to control. I decided to get rid of the problem by upgrading the heli to the 6S version. After changing the motor, the motor gear and the batteries the helicopter changed completely and now flies without any problem.

My flying skills have improve a lot during this year. The tool that have helped me the most has been Phoenix simulator. The real helicopter is amazing but I could not go to the flying field every week. The simulator was available every day for a quick flight at night. Every time I had a chance (which was not as often as I would have liked) I practiced for few minutes. I realized that the more regularly I practice the more I improved.

I felt a big improvement when I started to manage the orientation. I would say that orientation is the big thing to learn. More than everything else. And the simulator is perfect for that. I agree with the people that say that the real world is different to the simulator however the orientation is the same. If you master the orientation on the simulator you have a huge improvement in the real world as well.

Other tool that helps to practice orientation are the micro quadcopters. The link below points to the model I have used to practice orientation. It is cheap and helps a lot:

http://www.nexusmodels.co.uk/radio-controlled-models-bnf-airplane-jet/quadcopter-micro-quadrocoptor-blade-qx-hubsan.html

After one year of learning I am very happy to say that I am able to fly a Collective Pitch RC Helicopter. Even though I do very basic maneuvers such as hovering, circles and the 8, I am very happy and proud of it. I hope next year will be as good as this one and I keep learning and making friends in the flying field.

I wish a very happy new year to everybody.

Ben

[Cuban8]

After feeling a bit jaded with fixed wing flying a few years back, I decided that now reasonably priced electric helicopters were available, I'd teach myself from scratch. Firstly the jargon...........I didn't know a pitch curve from a rate gyro so loads of mugging up via the web and reading cover to cover Paul Tredelius' beginners book until I knew it word for word and understood it. Loads of time on the sim as well.

The model I bought (around 2008) was the JP Twister 3D and by following the Tredelius method for setting up, found myself hovering confidently in about six weeks. Another six weeks had me doing close in figure 8s - I have a big garden so every spare moment was spent practicing. The key to it was tiny amounts of progress so you rarely felt out of your depth, and always in the back of your mind an escape plan to (hopefully) get you out of trouble. Did I crash?.........yes............and wind up in the shrubs?...............yes again, but not so many times as you might expect - and with such a light heli, the damage was always minimal so a call to Midland Helicopters had me up and running with spares usually within 48hrs. A friend was learning on a nitro machine at the time, and the cost of repairing a single boom strike must have been three times what I spent on Twister gear sets, mainshafts, blades etc in the whole time that I had the model.

I went on to build a TT Mini Titan and began to make rapid progress, by gaining confidence with a better machine and did my heli 'A' within the year. 3D was never an attraction after seeing the hundreds (thousands?) of pounds being lavished on rebuilds by the club 'experts', so I'm quite happy to mooch around the circuit with the odd loop and stall turn thrown in for good measure.

People are scared of helis because of the perceived complexity and expense ( and boy it can be very expensive!), but I enjoy flying my HK 500 clone (gasps of horror from the purists) and plan to eventually fit the scale body I got for it a while back. Learning to fly a heli was the best thing I've done in a long time, and it's made me a better fixed wing pilot as well.

[Vinegar Dave]

450....harder to learn on than the bigger hellis but cheaper on parts when you crash

550 and above is more expensive in a crash but easier to start with due to being more stable

Certainly do not go for the 6S dominator as even experienced pilots it can get away from its just madness!

The 3S is OK.....Now just by coincidence i am selling a 3S with case etc etc etc....

There is something in my eyes magical about a helli and certainly 3D but nothing magical about wads of cash coming out of your bank account .......

Edited By Vinegar Dave on 31/12/2014 17:46:47

[Matthew Kennedy]

Hey Ben,

I know this thread is a little old now, but I want to find out how you got on learning with a 450L and do you think it was the correct route to take?

I've been flying smaller helicopters indoors and just making my way outside now. I have a decent grasp of flying and I'm thinking should I just go splash out on a nice 450L and fly that from here on.

I'm thinking I'll probably have to spend a few hundred on cheap helicopters on the way up to the 450L so why not spend those hundreds on spare blades servos what ever... should I need to for the 450L while at the same time I'm getting a good stable helicopter that's not hindering my learning process.