TSR2 in Depron

[Tony Bennett]

this is getting complicated and technical

i tend to just nail something together and see what it ends up like.

if it looks something like the intended aircraft then thats a bonus.

[Erfolg]

Complicated, Na, simples!

Technical, not really

Nailed together? You do not do yourself justice.

If it flies, well, that is what we are all watching! I am pretty sure that you will, maybe not first time, but it is possible. If not first time, we will watch you do what is necessary.

I have seen a few EDFs fly now, it seems that, it still pushes equipment to the edge and sometimes beyond. I have seen models catch fire mid flight, kill their Lipos, knacker the ESC (a few times). Yet I have seen a GWS A10 fly without trouble. I have seen some that can only fly in calm weather, others that can cope with some strong wind.

You are a trail blazer, hopefully with an all weather model.

[Colin Leighfield]

Tony, the TSR2 has been done quite a few times and as far as I know, successfully. It is really a delta with a tailplane, not so far from a Mig21 or even a Gloster Javelin, albeit underneath the wing rather than above it.

I reckon you'll be ok with this one.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I don't remember this stuff from when I was a kid...TSR2 etc, you lads get very passionate about it, so i'm learning about it from you.

John

[Andrew Price 2]

I suggest you Google "TSR2 Cancellation" John. Much venom to be had there!! It really was a travesty by the way. If you want to know a little more. FROM MEMORY. The replacement aircraft, the afore mentioned F111, was a rip off, but, it was apparently much better. I wouldn't know. I suspect Colin may have a view though!! Anyway. The F111 was itself later cancelled to appease the ruling Labour Partys left wing when prescription charges were increased. The enormous cancellation charges probably negated the extra script income for many months. Enough from me!!

[Daithi O Buitigh]

It was Solly Zuckermann's idea to cancel - he was the scientific advisor to Wilson (and he was a zoologist, which isn't very well up in aircraft design fundamentals) - he believed that US technology was superior in every way to any Brit technology and he pushed for the F111. The F111 was cancelled when devaluation of sterling against the dollar made it even more expensive, so they went and got the Phantom instead. The whole sorry business put a lot out of work (and increased the costs on the social security) and ended up costing more than it would have done to let things be.

On the same note, the Hawker P1154 was cancelled round the same time and the P1127, which was only really meant as a 'test of concept', was ordered into production as the Harrier (the P1154 would have been the supersonic version), and another breakthrough went down the drain along with about the entire aircraft industry

[Colin Leighfield]

Daithi sums it up perfectly again and Andrew points the way to the history. The F111 was originally referred to as the "TFX" as I recall. The problem with it wasn't just the cost, it also had massive development problems and was delayed into service by years. I think that was as much a reason for cancellation as was the Wilson circus's dodgy and politicised accounting procedures. I read later that the cancellation charges on the F111 would have more than covered the completion of TSR2 development and of course the point is that all of the money on it was spent on UK technology and UK jobs, sustaining a leading position in world aviation and advanced manufacturing which after all of the Duncan Sandys disasters was finally thrown of the window by the cancellation of TSR2, P1154 and HS681, along with the two aircraft carriers. The early problems with TSR2 were mainly with resonant vibrations in the supersonic variant Olympus engines, which were resolved shortly after as they had to be because the same engines were used in Concorde. Another point that is missed is that the greater number of engines needed if TSR2 had continued would probably have significantly reduced the cost of Concorde as well. That however is "joined-up thinking", a capability that politicians never possessed and still don't now. TSR2 was fully capable for the job and would have been in service years before F111 was finally turned into the very good plane it eventually became. The Phantom issue was "sweetened" by the government's insistence that it had British engines, Rolls Royce Speys. The problem was that the engines weren't really suitable and although more powerful than the J79s, they actually made the F4 slower and less fuel efficient. So it was made more expensive to buy and to fly as well as having reduced performance just for a political face saving exercise that didn't work. It would have been cheaper in every way to have completed TSR2 and put it into service. Parts for 40 were scrapped as part of the cancellation. What a disaster.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Tony's TSR2 in the air and dreaming again about what should have been.

[Andrew Price 2]

Thank you Daithi and Colin for helping to put the record straight. Our politicians have a consistent record of dodgy dealings and plain old cock ups. This continuous to this day. They deserve an 11% rise bless em!! Like Colin, I'm looking forward to seeing Tony's efforts in the air. Also greatly looking forward to Dunsfold on Sat. All those Merlins!! Yummy!!

[Dave Hopkin]

Afraid the list of cancellations that with hindsight were disasters isn't confined to the TSR2.... perhaps the Sunders Roe SR177 was the most flagrant, when the project was cancelled at 90% completion (give or take) when the sharpest minds in the MoD (switch irony off) decided the days of manned aircraft were over... good call that one!

The final nail in that birds coffin was the corruption surrounding the West German's decision to buy the F104 instead (Lockheed were much later on convicted along with several German officials of massive bribery)

To add salt to the wound the German nickname for the F104 was "The Window Maker" based on its safety record!

To say nothing of the AVRO Arrow saga in Canada

[reg shaw]

This thread gets better and better, even more so when the history is filled in so beautifully by Daithi and Colin, you pair shopuld write history books!!

Thanks folks, Ian.

[Erfolg]

There are major problems when trying to understand even recent history, that many of us lived through.

In this instance although the 60s are popularly portrayed as swinging with everything on the up, the reality was quite different for many of us,

The background was one with an unravelling British Empire. This was caused by WW2 being truly global, which differed from WW1 in that many of the territories of the BE, French Empires where held by the enemies of the Allies. This demonstrated to many, things do not have to be the same, as the Empires could be defeated. In short instead of gaining new territories as in WW1, Lands and interests were lost. Much was made of training peoples from these former territories in UK Universities, the reality was markets and sales were lost.

The UK was repaying the USA money borrowed (incl Marshall Plan), these sums were large. The difference between the UK and Germany was quite fundamental. The UK as a conflict winner, were trying to make a transition from a war time footing and economics to peace time. Where many of the former markets were now looking else where. With the best intentions the Labour party wasted, with hindsight vast sums of money, whilst up to the 60s living under continued rationing. The Germans as loosers were far more focussed with spends, receiving and having to pay back the USA much less. Although they had problems with continued reparations and restrictions on how much and what could be produced.

The UK workers and unions were very belligerent, with constant industrial strife in many industries, expecting some benefits for the sacrifices made by some in WW2.

AS is almost certainly true today, a lot of politics at national and international level were complex, much not reported and what was reported was often a spun version, bearing little relationship with the truth.

It was also the era of setting up and structuring NATO, which the USA saw as a way of preventing Europe falling into the hands of the Communists and extreme Socialists at a national level. With these issues in mind there was a funding programme that continued after the Marshal Plan, with the aim of stabilising Europe. As the USA were paying for many of the programmes, it was expected at a political and national level to work for the USA. If the UK industry got in the way of these interests, that would not be allowed to happen. Particularly as we were not paying the bill.

It was in this world that the TSR2 struggled for live.

I am on who does believe that some projects should go ahead for UK economic and technical strategy reasons. The trouble was, that in that era, there were many projects that were initiated for the political purpose of running down an industry, managing unemployment levels etc and just could not be paid for or were cost effective.

[Andrew Price 2]

It was Duncan Sandies (spl?) and his no manned aircraft policy that cost me my chance to join the RAF for apprentice training. I passed through the age band whilst that policy was in force.I had joined up for night school four nights a week to make sure that I was good for the exams as well. Mutter Mutter.

[Colin Leighfield]

Dave's comments about the 177 add to the story, along with that there was also the Avro 720 mixed power delta interceptor that had got to the mock-up (some say part built stage) before cancellation. Andrew's comments about the effect of Duncan Sandys on his personal career prospects is another part of the story we don't hear much about.

The TSR2 had every prospect of having the same kind of success as the Canberra and probably a 30 year service career. It was completely in tune with its' time because it reflected the need to change from vulnerable high level strategies to low. Although the Australians had decided to go for the TFX , there's every chance that with the many years of delay and cost over-runs on it that they would have re-considered TSR2 if it had continued.

Tony is planning to do his I think in the low-level camouflage scheme that it would have worn in reality rather than the all-over white of the prototypes that we always think of. I reckon it's going to look great.

[Andrew Price 2]

Before I saw Tony's proposal of a camouflage scheme I had never even thought of anything other than white. Bit of a shock to see it like that in fact!! Yet another reason to look forward to its maiden. Poor Tony. His build thread seems to have been hijacked. Please don't take umbridge Tony, I was amazed at the preciseness of your workmanship and I'm looking forward to seeing much more of it. Please!!

[Erfolg]

Duncan Sadnys is often portrayed as a villain.

In his defence it is true that the British Aircraft Industry could not be allowed to continue with the multitude of projects, even more to the point the size of the industry was out of proportion to both national and realistic international sales opportunities.

The other aspect that was true was that technology relative to aircraft was changing at a rate that made predictions anything like viable. The future did appear to be based on missile technology, to the extent that guns on aircraft seemed antiquated. Not only were the UK wrong on this count so was the USA, requiring many aircraft to be modified during the Vietnam war to carry guns, where as they were designed solely for missile systems. As has been highlighted the emphasis changed from high flying aircraft, due to the U2 incident, which was brought down by a missile, to low level. Many thought they saw the future, many were not correct, or partially visionaries.

With respect to the vision of pilotless aircraft, that is now becoming very real, in many guises, as well as undertaking many various roles. He and his advisors were out by some 50 years. Although all seemed possible in that particular era.

I personally would have liked to have seen a number of the cancelled projects survive into production. Although it would be easy to just blame Wilson, there is a long list of issues, poor decisions which are also relevant.

Even today the legacy of the British Empire are with us, our believe and desire to be an important world power, out of proportion to our economy etc. The French are also a post colonial power who have issues with there place in the world.

Perhaps what has disappointed me for years has been the UKs inability to sell military aircraft to other nations to sustain a large and vibrant military aircraft industry, that is not dependant on being a subcontractor. I do not believe it is a reflection of the airframes etc, but of our political clout and influence.

[Tony Bennett]

phew

[Andrew Price 2]

So you may consider building Bloodhound & Blue Streak for your next projects Tony!!

[Tony Bennett]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Daithi O Buitigh]

Not since the EU classed the Rapiers as 'explosives' instead of 'smoke producers' I think

Anyway - he could add a Blue Steel to his Vulcan

[Tony Bennett]

funny you should say that.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Very interesting thanks all, sorry about that Tony i'll keep my gob shut and just read

John

[Erfolg]

Tony

Which fans will you use and why?

[Tony Bennett]

not using fans.

they all noise and no go, pusher prop for this one.

[Erfolg]

Tony

Gives all a feel at its size, as it appears to be quite large.

I am intrigued as to the envisaged all up weight, wing area, how much power is envisaged will be used.

[Tony Bennett]

50" wingspan

100" long.

should weigh about 8lbs all finished.

you can do the math for me.