RCM&E Springfield Bulldog

[Bob Cotsford]

and on the point of redesigning the structure, wouldn't that sort of defeat the object of publishing reader's designs? Surely if that were the intent they would be better off just designing and selling their own designs starting from scratch, just like Keilkraft, Frog, Mercury etc used to do.

[Erfolg]

Bob I do understand where you are going.

My own opinion is that a scratch designed and built model will more often and not be ideal, or optimised. That is particularly with the structures.

The hard part is the first design, it becomes relatively easy to look at what has been produced, then optimise the design, which for some one selling kits, would be production.

I have noted that Top Flite, when selling kits of George Aldrichs Nobler, they re-engineered the structures. I can only guess, although i would imagine it was to improve the die cutting process, minimising material usage, improve packaging issues and possibly to make the kit easier to build by the average modeller. There could have been other issues from robustness, flying characteristics. I have noted a similar approach being taken by other kit companies where they have taken an established design and then reworked the model.

For a model such as the Bulldog, where Robert has done all the hard work, Myhobbystore, could do a little to improve the kiting aspect of the design. This is in all our interests, potentially reducing the kit price by a significant amount, potentially selling more kits and in to addition allow ordinary modellers(that is me) to build one.

I know this all comes across as negative, although I see the situation where Myhobbystore are falling short with both the kiting side and Giant Shark, both treading water from the consumers side of the equation.

[Scottrik]

What's more than a little sad is that this thread, intended to celebrate a wonderful model and encourage others to "have a a go" has become an Economics Whinging Log. I have found out that Mr. Caso is from the US and that he is a successful (even prolific) designer/kitter of model airplanes. He is able to provide the kit to folks on this side of the pond, and guess what. Taking into account the current exchange rate, dollars to pounds, it is almost exactly the same price other than I am able to save a hundred-ish dollars on shipping.

Where MHS, perhaps, falls short is that they really don't provide a good description of what is included in the kit. From Mr. Caso's kit description it becomes quite clear why the kit costs what it does. Firstly, "approximately 300 laser-cut parts". That's a BUNCH. Secondly, it describes slotted longerons (to truly "eggcrate" the structure together it would seem) and many fixtures, etc., that don't become part of the permanent structure but DO enhance the building experience.

I am placing my order this week and expect to have this box of wonderful in my hands within a couple weeks. I'm only saddened that I won't get to it right away or even particularly soon, too many "priority" projects right now. I've learned through sad experience that if you see a kit you want it's best to "jump" while they are available, so "jump" I shall.

As far as structure optimization, cut time optimization, etc...it is what it is. I only offer that to pay someone to feed wood to a laser cutter for three hours, and to tie up the equipment on ONE piece of merchandise for that amount of time costs money. And the minute YOUR place of employment charges exactly what you are paid for your time and the tied-up equipment (and the power, and insurance, and facility...) that they will be out of business and you looking for a job. It just doesn't seem to me that the kit price is THAT out of line, if at all, given what is included. If it's too rich for your blood or you just choose to prioritize spending otherwise, so be it. Move on. The opportunity exists to "roll your own" via the wonderful (and FREE) plans set you have been provided in the magazine. Have at it.

Scott

[Erfolg]

John

I can also see your arguments.

I can also see that the business is essentially a hobby. Having a relaxed attitude to costings, will ultimately lead to a reduced sale situation.

I can also believe to some the situation that you outline has lead in part to the decline of some aspects of UK manufacturing as a sector.

It becomes increasingly difficult to compete, when your potential competitors are using the latest technology, and you are relying on perhaps some niche aspects, such as one off items. Under these conditions the disparity between the mass market (relatively) and your sector, becomes ever larger and more noticeable.

If the owners of Myhobbystore are happy, all well and good. The other side of the coin, is that I have never used the kittng service, as I find it far to expensive, and have rarely purchased from GS, although a frequent customer of GC. I do buy kits, I do buy ARTF and scratch build, I could be a customer, but find there offer easy to resist.

Unfortunately we and the rest of the world are in a competition where there is never a winner, just those in the lead, and then the losers, a race that never ends. I guess we have a different vision for the UK, I want what I see a world leader, such as Germany, I see the decline of the UK distressing. I guess you see that your vision of quality of life is incompatible, with the sort of vision I have. Perhaps my greatest concern, that quality jobs, for my grandchildren will only come from endeavour and so on, where we all create real wealth.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 17/03/2015 12:23:25

[alan p]

Hi Robert

Thank you for your reply, with you saying the crutch method is viable. I am considering a I/c version with perhaps 40/50 FS cutting formers myself so was seeing if there could be a simplification . When present build is finished will look into it further. Definitely an interesting subject its got presence

Alan p

[Robert Caso]

Posted by alan p on 17/03/2015 12:50:46:

Hi Robert

Thank you for your reply, with you saying the crutch method is viable. I am considering a I/c version with perhaps 40/50 FS cutting formers myself so was seeing if there could be a simplification . When present build is finished will look into it further. Definitely an interesting subject its got presence

Alan p

Alan - yes after thinking about it, you could make two more interlocking horizontal longerons and then simply cut the slots in the bulkheads in which these would reside wider to accommodate (2) such longerons. Then cut ea bulkhead in half, at the halfway point in the notch. Since the (4) critical longerons interlock, if you keep everything straight and 90 deg it should work. Not an easy set of parts to cut by hand however.

Rob

[Robert Caso]

Erflog - I am not at all insulted by this conversation - it's a good "fanatic modeling" exchange among serious modelers. Perfect by me since I like to think of myself as such. Re the complexity of the model, again weight was the primary concern. You can have lightness, strength, or low cost.

Pick two.

Rob

[Mowerman]

I am another who would like to build this model and may be put off by the cost of the laser kit.

However the complexity of the parts makes me think that, without power tools (band saw or scroll saw) to do the cutting out, how long would it take with a hand fretsaw. At my age (75) would I ever get to the end

As the old man used to say 'They Don't put pockets in shrouds'

 

Edited By Mowerman on 18/03/2015 16:12:32

Edited By Mowerman on 18/03/2015 16:15:18

[Erfolg]

Robert

I did not think for one moment that I you would take offence, mainly because you have done all the hard work, above all created a successful model, which I admire. If I anticipated any one taking offence, it would be those who delight in being offended.

I now gather that you are in the USA, which is a country whose attitudes I personally much admire, that can do, I can make it better, attitudes and the universal believe in the USA and its values.

I would just urge you to design and publish a similar sized model of the Gee Bee R1/3 for electric power. I have a Henry Haffke plan, which is designed for IC, I could have a go at lightening the design myself. Although a design optimised from the start for common Lipo and motor sizes would help in my education.

I possibly will investigate getting the local college or Dylan, to produce formers for me. I will consider altering the formers to make as two halves, which are locally widened, to produce an interlocking tab.

I can also see virtue in the tube mandrel method of construction, which maintains the symmetries during crucial parts of the build. Also i know the keel method works, having built several Guillows Giant Scale models, although more care is required.

All in all one of the outstanding models that has been published by RCM&E, the other for me is the recent Lockheed Vega.

All I can really say, very well done.

[Robert Caso]

Posted by Mowerman on 18/03/2015 16:11:10:

I am another who would like to build this model and may be put off by the cost of the laser kit.

However the complexity of the parts makes me think that, without power tools (band saw or scroll saw) to do the cutting out, how long would it take with a hand fretsaw. At my age (75) would I ever get to the end

As the old man used to say 'They Don't put pockets in shrouds'

Edited By Mowerman on 18/03/2015 16:12:32

Edited By Mowerman on 18/03/2015 16:15:18

Mower - spend your time building and flying, not cutting, unless you like to cut of course. Once you see how well the model flies, you will forget about how much it cost. By the time you cut all the parts out by hand, glue them together and then have to do a finish, you'll be sick of it. Frame the model in a long weekend. Take 2-3 weeks to install, finish and fettle together. In a month you will have a nice model. My prototype took me about 3 months to do, but I was designing and "figgering things out" as I went - especially the landing gear which took me a long time to finalize. You can see all the trials and tribulations here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740175

Rob

Rob

[Robert Caso]

Erflog - thank you for your comments. If you must know, I actually prefer the UK modelers and feel that RCME is the best mag on the market, followed closely by RC Sport Flyer, for which I write the scale column. You UK guys are friggin serious about your models - look at guys like Richard Crapp, Dave Platt and a host of others I can't even name. My attempts at emulating what these guys do is merely a "glancing blow", but I keep trying! Every model I make has to more difficult than the last and, re the GB, my airplanes usually have guns and dull green paint. The larger Bulldog (first was 33" is somewhat of an anomaly for me, built for the NFARS "race" held at the NEAT fair in NY and agreed to during a beer induced discussion. See the RC Groups post above. Nevertheless people are now looking for me to do an even larger one but this time "almost exact" scale in maybe 1/5. But hard to put that in front of my 130" Lysander that I am currently doing.

Re one of the prev ideas of using a large tube - I did think of that but this thing is basically 1/2 of a football and you have the taper to contend with. Plus, I could not have the bulkheads spinning around on a tube. So, the jig has to be square or "X" shaped (as on my prototype) so that things stay reasonably in place as you go. I do agree that there are many ways to go on this model and what I have done is just one.

Having a laser has transformed the hobby for me however and, as a result, I am such a "cheater". I have it do everything from cutting the parts you see to paint masks, plastic details, and even the skeletons for the molds I make. I am shameless.

You'll be happy to know that I constantly beat on the guys over here to actually build something. And something interesting. And it better be good. So, I pick on everyone equally.

Rob

[Mowerman]

Thanks Rob.

As soon as I finish my Jocasta build I will have to make a decision.

Roy

Edited By Mowerman on 18/03/2015 17:08:30

[Robert Caso]

Hey Guys, at the risk of being "really boring" here is a list of what the short kit includes. Now I am presuming that RCME will provide all this stuff but this is at least a list of what I sent them. Note that one line item of what is included could in fact be 4-6 parts due to laminations needed etc. Plus, it comprises every size and type of wood you can imagine. It is a bear to produce, believe me. But it is rather easy to build.

Rob

Fuselage:

• Bulkheads
• Slotted longerons
• Sprung landing gear mount
• Landing gear struts box structure
• Motor mount box and mount for replica engine
• Nose filler pieces
• Servo mounts
• Tail cone mount
• Battery tray and mount
• Carburetor intake scoop

Wing:

• Ribs and main spars
• Gull ribs and spars
• Gull root fomers
• Leading edge formers
• Mounting tongue and box
• Wing tips
• Hatch and servo mounts
• Strut bracing and fairing formers

Empennage:

• Fin and stab built up outlines, pre slotted for hinging
• Rudder and elevator core outlines, pre slotted for hinging
• Fin and stab skinning

Primary items needed to complete the model:

• Straight section of 32 x 2 x ¾” plywood
• 1/8” contest balsa sheet
• 3/32” contest balsa sheet
• 1/16” contest balsa sheet
• 48”x ¼ x 3/16 hard balsa strip
• (4) Hitec HS65 HB servos
• Castle 50amp speed control
• Male and female Deans connector
• Thunder Power 4s, 3200 mAh lipo battery
• OS Max 3825-750 motor
• 12x8 propeller
• Four channel radio
• 14” servo leads
• 9” servo leads
• 4-40 blind nuts and hex screws
• Pair 3.5” Dave Brown wheels
• Great Planes micro hinge points
• ½” OD x 2” springs
• Central Hobbies 1/8” carbon pushrods
• 1/16” and 3/32” wire
• 48”x .155” OD carbon fiber tube
• Brass sheet and tube
• .155 ID aluminum tube
• Fiberglass Specialties 8x4” cowling
• Pair Fiberglass Specialties wheel pant #79
• 10 sq ft of .75 oz fiberglass cloth
• Sig Koverall covering
• Minwax Polycrylic
• Water based vinyl spackle

[John Warren 3]

Hi guy's,

I'm new to this forum but I thought you might like to see some pics of my Springfield Bulldog build.

It's the RCM&E plan which I had enlarged 20%. That brought it up to 65inch W.S. it has been a complicated build for me as it is the most detailed build I have done so far.Altuogh I have to say the easy part is now done.

i am now trying to get the wing incedence and dihedral all sorted.I willtry to upload some pics for you all.John.

[John Warren 3]

[John Warren 3]

Hi again ,

Took me a little while to figure out how to post pics, anyway here are a few will post more as the build progresse's

John.

[Robert Caso]

John - obviously I haven't been in in awhile but the model looks great. Hope you post some more progress pics. I remember that it was at about this stage of construction when I began to think that this thing would never fly. Hope you're finding the build to be reasonably drama free. You did the LG the easy way. By the time I settled upon the final design, the fuselage was already skinned and it was a pain in the neck to install.

Rob Caso

[John Warren 3]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the comments, I thought this post was dead.

I have got the fuz covered now and have to keep working on it to get rid of some bubbles before painting.

The moving surfaces are all made and waiting covering. My biggest dilema was geting the wings lined up properly,dihedral and incidencebut i think I have won.

Will post some more pic's soon.

Cheers

john.

[Peter Miller]

Ye Gods! John, Your bench is more cluttered than mine!!!

[Jimbo565]

Chaps,

I was fortunate to win the complete wood pack for this model and it's pretty impressive so no wonder the price is what it is,I may start it early in the new year.

[Tomtom39]

All the best with the build Jim.

Its very tempting but not at that price.

[Jimbo565]

[Bob Cotsford]

Lucky Jim

[Robert Caso]

John - appears that you have already aligned the wings - was going to post pic but can't figure out how on here. Key is to get the fuselage level and square on a flat surface - I did this with a temporary mount to the firewall that was flat and level on the bottom and firm foam block aft. Then I propped the wings up with some heavyish scrap wood with the verticals as separate pieces supporting the wings. The base of these were clamped to the table and the verticals clamped to that so you could adjust them to set the dihedral.

Rob

[Robert Caso]

The cost of the kit is soon forgotten after the wheels leave the ground.