Luftwaffe, Secret Jets of the Third Reich by Dan Sharp

[Erfolg]

Just as most of you I was brought up with tales of Spitfires and Hurricanes, against which the Germans had no chance. I also knew with absolute certainty that the first Jet aircraft was British.

You can imagine my confusion when I was told by farther that he has seen German jet aircraft flashing through the skies in Northern Germany.

Over the subsequent years i have accumulated numerous books that dealt with Jet type German Aircraft. More recently there has been a series of books which contain page after page of in some cases extraordinary aircraft.

My thinking has been well, no wonder they lost the war, so many aircraft and designs. Were the German aircraft companies allowed to do what what they wanted, and when they wanted?

This magazine is the first publication I have seen where some understanding as to what happened, when and why, is mapped out. In terms of time lines, design competitions.

It has on reflection come as no surprise that many of the designs, were not much more than cigarette packet designs. In other cases what appears to be a number of stand alone individual designs are either part of a series of design development or just alternative sketches.

Some designs which appear in books are questioned as to their validity, there being no mention of them prior to the 1970s, nor can people be found who worked on them.

Why can the author be so certain in his assertions. Unlike many writers he is not reliant on the prior work of other writers. He has gained access to UK & USA documents and interviews which were compiled by the allies military bodies.

In the end it seems some designs were more real than others, whereas some could well be fantasy.

It is by far the best book I have, in many respects.

It is not without issues, as some of the meanings of translations can be misleading or for some not obvious what is being suggested. One case is the Gotha, where a Fw engineer is questioning the implications of CP shift or the pitching moment relative to Aoa, with a high swept wing, with a small tip chord. there are a few more instances.

In the end not a bad booklet at all.

Edited By Erfolg on 11/09/2015 16:51:58

[Dave Hopkin]

One of the issues with German Wartime Designs was the chaotic system of procurement they implemented, whilst we were dictatorial and stuck to a small number of designs to maximise production, the Germans seem to have wasted huge effort in a myriad of designs a good number of which only existed on paper and on the tongues of designers promising "war winning weapons" - a number made it to prototype and withered under testing, quite a few towards the end were ordered in numbers far in excess of anything Germany could actually produce - the HE-162 Salamander being a prime example where production promises made were 1000 per month by April 45 and 2000 a month after that - in reality 120 were completed

[kc]

Is it actually in WH Smiths now? Amazon don't show it as available yet.

[Erfolg]

Dave the book is interesting in that respect. As with many things all is not necessarily as it seems. The actual number of single engine fighters in production was essentially two. The 109 and 190.

It is interesting however to understand the whats and whys of say the 262 and the 280. The issues with the engines available, the time scales in the actual quantity supplies. Then there is the issue of the subsequent next generation engines.

The mag mentions the issues of how good some companies, such as Klemm and Freisler were at winning sub contract work, and their inability to meet the actual supply as per the contract.

I think one of the strengths of the mag/booklet was that the origins of much of the data is the result of compulsory requirement by the allies of the various workers/designers to write down, produce drawings and documents, as to what the story was.

A revealing comment was that many of the senior engineers such a Voight, Tank, Heinkel, had little input into the deigns, beyond liaisoning between the RLM and the actual design engineers, having determined the characteristics of what was wanted, what engine could be used etc. The author puts this far more succinctly than me.

I have rarely been impressed with many books on aircraft, as with this rather cheap booklet. I have just one which is written by RLM officials as to the procurement philosophy, which starts at WW! and finishes mid 60s (written by a number of them).

The He-162 is dealt with, the chaos that surrounded a collapsing state and industry. What is also relevant is the lack of knowledge of the true military situation facing both Germany and the manufacturers. Events were over whelming all. To some extent it demonstrates how human beings are in denial when all is lost, although totally apparent with hind sight. Yet the story is essentially the same as printed else where, with just a little more information, that provides an insight how an entire aircraft could be designed, then test flown in a very short time. Particularly when all the issues confronting both design and manufacture are considered.

The real strength of the book is putting all the aspect into context. Perhaps the relative brevity of the booklet helps in helping in keeping many aspects in focus.

[Erfolg]

KC

It was there on Saturday.

[kc]

I guess it is more of a magazine than a book and perhaps on the magazine shelf?

[Erfolg]

KC,It was on the magazine shelf.

It is 130 pages long.

It is far better than many of the books and booklets that have more pages, less pictures and information than this magazine.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

I think many of the German weapons systems from machine guns to jets were probably the best of the war. As we know the Germans are excellent engineers but they do tend to let the perfect get in the way of the perfectly adequate & in Wartime you can't do that. WWII was a war of industrial production as much as one of battles & with their excellent but very complicated solutions the German factories simply couldn't hope to compete. Many designs were simply too slow to manufacture quickly enough. In wartime numbers matter & generally the guy with the most tanks & planes will win even if they aren't the best tanks & planes....

Add to this the fact that the German factories were being plastered night & day whilst the American, British & Russian factories were pretty much left alone. Also many German factories used slave labour...many of whom did what they could for the war effort by sabotaging the items they were making; it's amazing Nazi Germany lasted as long as they did....

[Simon Chaddock]

To a certain degree the nature of weapons procurement was a reflection of the chaotic way in which Hitler chose to run Germany with several competing chains of commend.

Whilst this approach may have had some benefit in peace time the huge volume of wartime production meant most became resource limited. The competitive nature of Hitler's chain of command meant manufacturers had to acquire high ranking 'champions' for each new design to ensure the appropriate resources were made available.

The result was a multitude of designs and prototypes proceeded further than necessary before sufficient evidence (or authority) resulted in cancellation.

There is no doubt that without the efforts of Albert Speer appointed Minister for Armaments and Production in 1942 with absolute authority the situation would have been worse than it was.

[Erfolg]

Steve

You could well be right with much of what you have written.

Although there was a lot of emphasis on production rates, cost, the use of strategic materials, which is then compared with allied equipment capabilities, In short, things were to be just good enough to provide a margin of superiority, that ultimate performance was not required if it came at to great a cost.

Yet the mag/booklet helps in understanding the events and logic of what at first appears to be a totally chaotic plethora of sometimes bizarre designs.

The aspect of the day and night bombing is touched on in passing, in that manufacturing capacity was destroyed or interrupted by these events,

Although I do not think it was the purpose of the book, it can be seen that a structured and managed procurement and assessment procedure, descended into a series of desperate decisions and actions as the situation in the last year of the WW2 forced the pace of change.

I am somewhat surprised that a booklet, that i initially had qualms about purchasing, has turned out to be so informative. I think that a good part is the apparent fact, that the history of the various projects has been sourced from those directly involved. We perhaps cannot understand the fear that the Germans in general had with respect to the Russians, particularly those engineers and scientist who feared being hand to them. They would tell as much as is possible, in the hope of avoiding a fate that was most probably death.

What ever the reasons this booklet is far more informative, and has some events that do not fit or go unrecorded from other sources, which i am inclined think, to be nearer the truth. It is the use of internal correspondence, of internal correspondence, with respect of rival projects, that adds colour to what various competitors were thinking.

[Erfolg]

Simon

Although the booklet does not deal with the issue, although perhaps surprising, there was a general very limited manufacturing capacity, and manpower. That is compared with the rates of consumption when dealing with the manufacturing capacity of the USA and Russia.

I think the main attribute of the booklet, is to dispel the notion that there were as many designs and projects as many books would suggest. I am sure that you will have been involved in front end design, where you generated a large number of alternative concepts, for evaluation. It seems that many of the so called project were no more than these concepts brochures, for higher management. I would also expect that you will also been involved in the assembly of project brochures, which were hopefully speculative. It seems there were a number of those. The final point you make is also true, that there a small number of projects that were approved as a consequence of knowing the right people or person,which were eventually cancelled.

You know Simon, there is so much that reminds me of a particular company, it seems that nothing really changes.

[Colin Leighfield]

I have a book somewhere which is a high level economic analysis of the air war. It demonstrates that regardless of military prowess and individual victory events, once the BoB had been lost and Barbarossa failed to achieve its' objectives in 1941, it was economically impossible for Germany to win the war. The simple laws of attrition, replacement capacity and limits to the ability to expand production at the rates achievable by the Allies, made the outcome mathematically inevitable. At the end the day, it came down to basic economics and resources. Hitler was a gambler, not a sound strategist and he lost. He didn't have a plan B and at the end of the day, probably insufficient education or the broad ability to comprehend all of the fundamental principles that affected the outcome of a prolonged conflict. A born loser in the final analysis, Germany deserved better than that strutting self-deluding idiot and they paid the price for backing him in the first place. The record of the German aircraft industry throughout the conflict was a simple reflection of a wider and eventually disastrous miscalculation and inability to comprehend basic principles. All of the technical wizardry in the world can't get over that.

[Colin Leighfield]

To go a stage further, I've just ordered it from Classic Magazines, hard copy £6-99 including delivery. Not convinced it will give me much more than the stuff I already have on the subject, but at that price it's worth a look. The download version is £3-99.

My dad spent most of the war in the labour camp Erika, about 50 kms North of Dresden and not so far from Peenemunde. He saw 163s being flown, climbing at a phenomenal rate and it wasn't until he finally got home that he found out what it was he'd seen. 

 

Edited By Colin Leighfield on 11/09/2015 22:59:24

[kc]

We can speculate 'what if' forever, but it seems probable that if Hitler had not invaded Russia before finishing with Britain we would all be speaking German now!

Or of course if Bletchley Park had not been so clever.....

etc, etc.

[Erfolg]

Those who expect this booklet to comment on the personalities etc. of those concerned will be disappointed.

Its forte in many respects is quite simple, to provide a time line, the identification of contract competitions, then group the various designs with respect to the contract comp.

I would expect that all of us are thankful that the war turned out as it did.

[Colin Leighfield]

Looks as if we all agree chaps. I'm looking forward to getting this, I've got a number of publications on the German jets and secret projects, but never get tired of reading more! On the piston engined stuff, I've also had a thing about the late versions of the He112 and He100. One day I might do something about it.

[J D 8]

As well as the aircraft I have an interest in the German wartime development of S.A.M. systems which could have reeked much destruction on allied bomber streams. Like other weapons systems in development it was chaotic and eventually five or six systems got as far as hardware under test stage out of a total of thirty plus that were in at the paper stage some of which could have been effective. But with the procurement system at that time it was more a case who you knew than what you knew which was just as well for allied bomber crews.

[Erfolg]

John

I do not know where you are located, if you are near to Cosford, there were a few in the museum, on display.

I specifically rember a B&V Hagelkorn that they had. Specifically because the wings were labelled as made from concrete. Apparently a anti-radiation missile.

They also have a Rhein Tocheter, possibly a Fritz X.

Other than the R4M air to air unguided missile, I just think that the electronics technology at that point was not up to use effectively in missiles.

I understand that a wire guided missile was made and successfully used.

In many ways a new idea, in its infancy.

Colin

I also have a collection of books on the subject of German aircraft and specifically jet/rocket types. It is noticeable that some appears to be plagiarised, in that it is the same information repeated. I have read some contradictory and speculative texts, which raise questions, but provides no answers.

In most cases it is not obvious what the reference sources actually are, then how relevant, if references are located.

As I have previously written, it is the use of British and USA official records from interrogations and the drawings that they collected and in some cases were made to reproduce, that provides credibility.

I have suspected that some of my books are a little fanciful, in some cases, in others, less than generous.

It cannot be emphasised how much the Germans feared the Russians, their equivalent of ISIS walking down the high street complete with guns and swords. These individuals would have been so fearful for their lives that they will have provided as complete description that they were capable. History has proved their fears to be well founded, as thousands of German POW were walked until they eventually died.

[Colin Leighfield]

I think that over 90% of Germans taken prisoner by the Germans died in captivity and of those that survived, it was past 1950 before they got home. The Russians looked after von Paulus of course, but the rest were treated as badly as possible. Under the circumstances, the way that they treated the Russians, it is sadly understandable, even though we would condemn it.

Anyway, I've always quite fancied the Ju287.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[J D 8]

Thanks for the info Erfolg,have not been to Cosford, all the more reason to go now.

Most of the projects had radio control and were optically tracked to the target, the flair of the missile helping keep it in view of the operator until a proximity fuse detonated the quite large warhead in the bomber stream.

After the dams raid the Germans found an intact bouncing bomb and then made a rocket launched version that could be launched from an aircraft at the target from some distance,an early stand off weapon.

[Erfolg]

John

I understand that the wire guided missiles also relied on a flare/rocket for the operator to guide the device.

In General

It is not surprising that many of the projects never came to fruition during WW2 with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Today we accept that most defence projects take some +10 years. At that particular period, the complication of weaponry was starting to move up the exponential curve that came with technology.

Taking the 163, even in the glide the glide speed produced a closing speed, that having two slow firing cannon required a lot of luck to get a destructive hit. The development of wing root mounted, photo electric fired recoilless rockets, took some time. What appears to me a simple task of wing mounting, R4M rockets under the wing caused problems.

The weaponry destined for the 262, included a multi barreled powered machine cannon, another cannon design saw success in the Aden cannon, in addition to the R4M rockets. It has been claimed that R4M was developed into the Mighty Mouse missile, more probably influenced it.

There was also the issue of the Jet engines. The route taken by by both Junkers and BMW was the more demanding, that of a axial flow. Again the 003 being the basis of the French Atar. Most of the engines were low in power and high in consumption at that stage. That is without considering the operational life which was handicapped by the limited access to Nickel. Again the materials research made a significant contribution to the Allies and in particular the UKs knowledge and understanding of many alloys.

In general a lot of good decisions were made, in principal. What was grossly underestimated was the time and the engineering manpower necessary to bring the scientific development to fruition.

There was one area where the Germans were at best on par with the Allies and that was electronics, although specific areas can be found where they definitely lagged. Yet when reading about electronic warfare, there appears to be an equivalence in understanding understanding the weakness, of electronic systems. Counter measures often being with held, in case the other side retaliated using the same measures, to your overall disadvantage.

In general I am not at all surprised that the general missile systems were at best used in low numbers, this was the beginning of a step change in such systems.

[Colin Leighfield]

Mine arrived today and I have to say that it is very good. Thanks for pointing it out Erfolg.