Kit builders, what would you like???

[Jon H]

I sympathise regarding the issue of deposits. I had people offering me money left right a center to be first on the list for a petrol Laser and i had to say no as i didnt know how long the development time would be. As it turns out its more than 2 years since those guys were waving money at me and no engine yet. While some would accept this, many would not and there would have no doubt been many hours spent on 'update' calls from the guys quite legitimately asking how the engine they half paid for was doing.

However, if 30 of us say 'yes i will take one once you kit it' but then when the time comes all back out as they are not financially committed to the project you are equally in trouble.

Whichever path you choose to go one party will have to trust the other and in fairness i would like to think that as we are all modelers we wouldnt deliberately stitch eachother up.

As for model selection, as previously stated a 72-75 inch Whirlwind would be my preference over a similar mosquito because i love the fact that its very different from the norm, it has its own sort of ungainly beauty and looks cool in the air. it will also end up being a talking point wherever it is flown which will only help advertise the Warbirds range of kits.

While i like the mosquito very much and would like one eventually, the whirlwind will jump to the top of my list right away. Even if i have to buy engines for it!

[Les Warrington]

Hi Richard

Out of interest, why do you write that Whirlwind and Hornet are easier to make than a Mosquito? But I do really hope that you make one (or more) of them. My preference is a Sea Hornet but I see all have their votes.

[RICHARD WILLS]

The Mosquito has convex curves that the others dont have . Although some people are good at planking , most find it too fussy and time consuming . We have looked at some other options for creating the curves. The mossie has a very long tail moment too which makes overall weight tricky since weight saving is restricted.

The Ju88 sales will influence the likelyhood of any future twins. As we said before I dont need big numbers but there is a limit !

I am excited about the twins because I feel the time is right for them .

R

[Jon H]

Twins for all!

Once the whirlwind is done I fancy a Pe2 just to be really different

[IanN]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 07/07/2016 18:25:20:

The Ju88 sales will influence the likelyhood of any future twins. As we said before I dont need big numbers but there is a limit !

I am excited about the twins because I feel the time is right for them .

R

That's what worries me slightly: this seems dependant on the JU88 which I don't think is an "obvious" winner - really do hope I'm completely wrong

I too think the time is right for the twins concept though - there could be huge potential for a genre that has been largely overlooked by manufacturers until now

[Jon H]

I think the Ju88 might peak the interest of more people if it was shown in the Battle of Britain era bomber configuration and markings. It sounds daft i know, but i think that is how most people would expect to see it.

And, as the server that hosted my previous picture of the Pe2 has now decided it is forbidden i will post another one from somewhere else!

[RICHARD WILLS]

And you see , there is the problem . I look at the Pe2 and think , yes that would be very cool , winter camo etc .

All very easily achievable . All of the previous mentioned would have a wow factor - 110 , Hornet , Whirlwind , Pe2,

410 , P38 , Mossie and so on. Once you visualise all of those models in the same size as the 88 you can see how they would take our scale modelling into a new and exciting area . Different shapes in the sky .

May be it will be a slow process . Get some twins out there , start seeing the potential rather than being blinkered about your specific dream model ? Of course people cant be expected to buy something they dont fancy , but surely it is not a case of "that or nothing ". If I were so fixated ,I would build from plan . So a compromise must be struck .

Another option I suppose is to group people into "favourites teams " . So for example we take the Hornet .

The Hornet fans identify their team leader for me to work with and then I produce wings and foam decks plus some mouldings if available to make some prototypes . the aerodynamics would be easy for me so we could guarantee they all flew well and were practical models.

If the model develops a bigger following , the kit could revisited and polished accordingly . Maybe laser cut if preferred .

[IanN]

Put me down for "team Whirlwind" then, if anything comes of that idea. I propose Jon as team leader

[Les Warrington]

Team Sea Hornet. And I'd even be willing to pay a premium to be an early-adopter, if that helps.

[Jon H]

Im happy to champion Team Whirlwind.

May all who follow my lead worship the ground i walk on and all things 4 stroke

[IanN]

Excellent. I'll have my (admittedly probably not as scale as yours) version up and flying ground attack missions over Buckinghamshire whilst you're still working out your flap arrangement

[bouncebounce crunch]

A plan for a wife that can help me build great flying model aeroplanes.

Don't want her at the flying field though.

[Nigel Dell]

I am with Team Whirlwind although I will not be kneeling down to the Great 4 stroke one, not with my knees! I can't doff my forlock either due to there not being one anymore.

I can look at him in a smilie way if he finds it acceptable but I have to confess it looks more a wind induced grimace!

I will have one if it becomes available, I am about to start my La 7 which looks a little peach and could really do with a playmate such as a Pe. 2

[Jon H]

The Pe2 would make a great model. The nacelles are a good size and will either take an inverted engine with fuel tank behind or a leccy setup with room for the battery below the motor. It could be loaded through the scale radiator intake for nice cooling airflow over the battery and esc.

It also has large but simple flaps, a short and simple aft retracting undercarriage, a generous wing area and it looks very menacing as well. I would love to build one and have a small flock (planes fly in flocks right??) of Yaks and La7's to escort me to target

Ian, the flaps on the whirlwind can actually be made quite simple and with the accuracy and repeatability of laser cutting it should be quite easy to replicate it on the model. As the wing centre section is dead flat on the Whirlwind that would make life very much easier and if the rest of the build was super quick then a little time spent on the flaps wont matter and you will end up with something dead fancy to show off at the field!

[Ady Hayward]

Hi Folks,

I have been watching this debate for some time and have tried hard to stay perched on the fence but alas I can't any longer. The Ju88 has produced a great deal of wow factor from all who have seen it the air and on the ground. The simplicity of build and great flight characteristics had a good few say they would like to have one so fingers crossed with that.

It does show that there is a great deal of interest in the bigger twins and singles, and especially those that will not break the bank so the formula is spot on. Even a more complex build as seen in the new Mk9 Spitfire wowed many as the ease of building makes this complex shape go together really well for novice and expert alike so the formula there is great too.

It makes me think that a range of models that complement each other may be attractive such as FW190/ Mk9 Spitfire, Hurricane/ Me109, Ju88/ Hornet or Whirlwind, Il2 and Pe2 with suitable adversaries and the list could go on.

As for the Hornet or Whirlwind...... I like the rugged looking simplicity of the Whirlwind but the sleek form of the Hornet has the edge in my opinion. The round fuselage could be made with a six or eight sided internal box and sheet or foam decking gives the final form. Even sheet as per the Spitfire wing to give the compound curves as the laser cutting makes the accuracy of form needed a simple task.

Just my 2p worth

Adrian

[Jon H]

''The Ju88 has produced a great deal of wow factor from all who have seen it the air and on the ground. The simplicity of build and great flight characteristics had a good few say they would like to have one ''

I think you might have hit upon a good point here Ady. Many people might not have an aspiration to build/buy any model of any type until they see another and how it performs, or in many cases, until they realise it even exists in the first place.

There could be a great many people who have never even considered a twin as they are a rarity in kit or ARTF form, the are perceived to be expensive, complex and almost guaranteed to bite the dust if an engine fails.

With modern engines or an electric setup cost and reliability are not the issues they once were and even if one engine/motor does go most pilots should be able to handle it if the follow the right procedure and guidance on this could even be included in the kit instructions. Single engine handling would also be helped by the model (like the Ju88) being lightly loaded and not a flying brick like twins of old.

Its almost like we have to put the cart before the horse and produce a product first and then convince the punters its viable and show off its strengths. I personally don't think this would be a hard sell especially once the ball is rolling a bit.

I'm a fan of more or less any twin we come up with but the Whirly and Pe2 are the ones that really get me excited. The Hornet is great but the paint jobs are a bit unimaginative in general and that puts me off. I would like a Mossie but I am torn by my desire to break from tradition and do something unusual.

In the meanwhile Ady get all of your mates to order a Ju88! Clearly don't badger the poor chaps, but the more customers Richard has and the more people are enjoying flying his models the more forum posts and videos we generate and more the more the snowball will grow and the greater the motivation to push more designs forward.

[Ady Hayward]

Hi Jon,

The people that made comment were surprised at how light the Ju88 was plus the scale schedule was completed having used 50% of a 3300 Lipo and another example of the effect of low wing loading. I am contemplating finding a way to switch the motors in and out so that it can be demonstrated on one motor. I would definitely advertise it as an ideal first twin simply because it flies so well and as yet I haven't found any handling vices despite having given it plenty of provocation.

Adrian

[Jon H]

If you mix your throttles you could flip a switch to disable the mix. If you disabled the mix at say 30% throttle you could then open up the 'good' engine and practice flying like that. If it all went nasty just flip the switch to get both engines back

[IanN]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 08/07/2016 19:00:38:

''The Ju88 has produced a great deal of wow factor from all who have seen it the air and on the ground. The simplicity of build and great flight characteristics had a good few say they would like to have one ''

There could be a great many people who have never even considered a twin as they are a rarity in kit or ARTF form, the are perceived to be expensive, complex and almost guaranteed to bite the dust if an engine fails.

With modern engines or an electric setup cost and reliability are not the issues they once were and even if one engine/motor does go most pilots should be able to handle it if the follow the right procedure and guidance on this could even be included in the kit instructions. Single engine handling would also be helped by the model (like the Ju88) being lightly loaded and not a flying brick like twins of old.

Its almost like we have to put the cart before the horse and produce a product first and then convince the punters its viable and show off its strengths. I personally don't think this would be a hard sell especially once the ball is rolling a bit.

 

The JU88 is already out there. Get the a few each of the Whirlwind plus another prototype, and plan for a couple of the shows - or Greenacres or similar - next year to test the water?

Edited By IanN on 08/07/2016 21:22:43

[kevin b]

Posted by bouncebounce crunch on 08/07/2016 15:16:16:

A plan for a wife that can help me build great flying model aeroplanes.

Don't want her at the flying field though.

You don't want much, do you ?

Anyway, I think Tim Hooper owns the copyright on that one.

What's wrong with lady fliers ?

[David Davis]

Posted by kevin b on 08/07/2016 21:58:56:

Anyway, I think Tim Hooper owns the copyright on that one.

What's wrong with lady fliers ?

[RICHARD WILLS]

Canopies ,cowlings , spinners and nacelle moulds are all the sticking points .

However if you look at the way the Ju88 is made and stick to that format then prototypes can be formed fairly quickly . Its a shame nobody likes the BF 110 , because we have everything for one of those .

I rather like the 410 too which would have made an easy pairing with the Hornet .

Perhaps we could just make a 110 and put some roundels on it?

We do have a lot of moulds in our store so some of the above items can be approximated . Also to some extent if we go down this route , the initial model would be a "factory assisted prototype (or types)".

It would seem that if you are going to sit at home and wait for a more obscure twin , you will have to contribute something or gather a lot of friends to make the development worthwhile by someone else.

That is why the Mosquito keeps coming up .

From a personal point of view , I do like them all , but Ive never seen a real 88 fly (there isnt one!) or a Whirlwind so for me , that is a fascination . The recreation of something fabulous, but lost .

[Nigel Dell]

Richard

I like the 110, been meaning to do one for years, even blew up a plan ready but it just did not get round to it, some really great colour schemes too, seems like I Ought to do one to get more practise for when the Whirlwind is done!😈

What size is it you have? I am guess similar to the 88 also the 410 is a marvel, when I lived in Shropshire my second home was at Cosford and I made a bee line to the 410 it is an awesome bit of kit.

I am up for the 110 if you have the bits.

Cheers

Nige

[IanN]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 09/07/2016 10:20:01:

Canopies ,cowlings , spinners and nacelle moulds are all the sticking points .

I was guessing that and funnily enough was going to p.m. you along the same lines.

The dilemma is obviously that to tool up to a kit you need the commitment of sufficient (was it c25?) builders, but If we can't get that no, how will we ever get to a viable proof of concept?

I'd be perfectly ok with "We do have a lot of moulds in our store so some of the above items can be approximated". if that drops the initial outlay and gets to a flying prototype. "approximated" is fine by me if it gets us off the ground.

I'd also have absolutely no problem at all with building my own nacelles and cowlings, nor with having a go at moulding my own canopy. Well up for that

So, if it were in the first instance a case of producing, say, a set of Whirlwind foam wings and fus deck mouldings - nothing else - for those of us who fancy the Whirlwind, how would that stack up? I was going to also say the only other thing we'd need would be the plan, but I'm guessing that if you do a plan it's then only a very short step from there to also getting the main components (formers e.g.) cnc cut aswell - but you'll know that far better than me

Don't know - what do you, and other potential builders think - might that be a viable way forwards?

Edited By IanN on 09/07/2016 12:17:58

[RICHARD WILLS]

Nige , the 110 is very much like the 88 , same build , I still fly mine on two Sc52FS . Mine is the G model with the bigger cowls and spinners but I have both cowl types . It's 72" . send me an email and I can reply with a picture.

The 110 is pretty much on our cutting system complete so we could make some tomorrow . Even a fairly decent plan would be available . To persuade my kit cutter to make one would be tricky . Three would be a good starting point . Price would be as per Ju88 at £180 . Maybe somebody else fancies one ? It could be electric or IC of course.

Richard