goodbye to the LMS

[ken anderson.]

in the last two weeks we in ne...1 land(north east of UK)have lost two model shops...retail outlets where you could go have a hands on with the stuff and buy all the bits and piece's that you need for a new or on going project...overnight gone...probably not to be replaced.i think that now in our area its going to be impossible to relace them and so the knock on effect is its so much harder to get what you want ect,and i see that in the latest mag(june 16) AW mentions the same thing happening where he is,and i imagine all over the uk is the same.....have we been spoilt in the past?who know,s.i think that any new RC modellers are going to be a different set of people as we now know ourselve's...for better,for worse i dont know..... i suppose the internet and one large retailer will be the one who is clapping their hands and bank accounts....but what about the rest..a nightmare for the dealers,importers....be interesting to see what its like where you are......... support the LMS if you have one....

ken anderson...ne...1..... we want a LMS dept. .

[Geoff S]

I did and they fell by the wayside one by one. The last to go was Hobbystores in Beeston, Nottingham which wasn't exactly loca for mel but was in walking distance from both my brother's and my sister's houses so wasn't too inconvenient. There's still GeeDee in the middle of Nottingham but it's not exactly a convenient location to access unless you have a need to go into the city, which I don't.

So I'm afraid it's shows and mail order via the internet in the future.

I think Ken's right that the new breed of modeller is going to be quite different from the old. I started as a mature adult (mid 50s) because an injury stopped me sailing and cycling seriously and I needed another outlet. It was a small local model shop in Heanor (Wayland's Models) that did a lot to help me out. I was already quite practical and didn't have too much trouble building my trainer but learning to fly was a bit more difficult.

How someone in my position would get started is the question and perhaps explains the rise and rise of multi-rotor so-called drones - they get the publicity. Scale and sport fixed wing aircraft are just about unknown outside the hobby.

Geoff

[Colin Leighfield]

Well said Ken. When I was a kid there were many, including some shops that included model planes as part of a wider business. (Who remembers Knights in Kingstanding, Birmingham, above the cycle shop)? Gills in Sutton Coldfield, Model Mecca in Aston, Model Aerodrome in Birmingham city centre, etc, etc. Now I'm fortunate to be within 15 minutes of Mike's Models who manage to keep most things in stock and look busy, long may they continue and hopefully prosper. Beyond that though, there's nowhere I can think of within shooting distance.

One thing I was pleasantly surprised to see though on a recent visit to Hobbycraft in Tamworth was the range of rubber powered model kits by I think Vintage Aeroplane Company(?), traditional balsa and tissue builds. Also they were selling balsa and other modelling odds and ends. That at least widens the scope of people who see these things including youngsters and might spark some new interest.

At least on-line we can buy everything these days, but it's not the same as being able to jump in the car and be back home within the hour, with the bits you desperately needed to get on with in the shed. Times move on and we have many advantages these days, but it's not all good. As a skint youngster I could go to these places and gawp, dreaming of days when I might be able to afford 3shillings and 8 pence for that Keilkraft Kraft Hurricane kit, that opportunity has sadly mostly gone. 

Edited By Colin Leighfield on 12/05/2016 17:23:11

[BrianB]

Hi Ken,I know about Gladstons closing but which is the second one?I agree with all you say but would point out that Gladstons closed not through lack of business but because the owner wished to retire and could not find a buyer!Still a loss.

[ken anderson.]

hello Brian...i think that also one of the factors re gladstons was the good old burglars ...the other....... check out BRC hobbies web site and make your own decision ....sad times..

ken anderson...ne...1 end of an era as we knew it dept.

[Dave Bran]

I have more than three LMS, you might think that good, I don't.

I don't think five working days with no reply to a simple Email stock or availability enquiry is acceptable. They agreed they had received it when challenged. More than once.

I don't think being sold something without comment that had been opened, part used and then taped back up at full price acceptable (esp when told they had not used "much" like it was ME that was being cheeky).

I don't think after ME checking a spare part was available at the importer (who would not sell direct), then ordering (with their acceptance with not constraints mentioned) at LMS, then checking on subsequent visits if it had been received, to be finally told many weeks later "do you still want that part as we are about to order" acceptable.

I don't find a LMS having an Internet price better than they will give me for collecting and paying any way they prefer acceptable.

Have not used a LMS for a long time now, and I don't miss the experience.

Model Railway shops are fast going the same way.

[Rich too]

Posted by Dave Bran on 12/05/2016 18:51:12:

I have more than three LMS, you might think that good, I don't.

I don't think five working days with no reply to a simple Email stock or availability enquiry is acceptable. They agreed they had received it when challenged. More than once.

I don't think being sold something without comment that had been opened, part used and then taped back up at full price acceptable (esp when told they had not used "much" like it was ME that was being cheeky).

I don't think after ME checking a spare part was available at the importer (who would not sell direct), then ordering (with their acceptance with not constraints mentioned) at LMS, then checking on subsequent visits if it had been received, to be finally told many weeks later "do you still want that part as we are about to order" acceptable.

I don't find a LMS having an Internet price better than they will give me for collecting and paying any way they prefer acceptable.

 

Have not used a LMS for a long time now, and I don't miss the experience.

Model Railway shops are fast going the same way.

 

 

 

It's not rocket science is it Dave? It's simple, customer service.....

 

Edited By Rich2 on 12/05/2016 19:44:48

[Ian Jones]

The demise of my LMS has seriously affected my building/maintenance. I'm with Ken on the desire to look at, feel and talk about a purchase.

I've wasted money on buying stuff that was unsuitable with ridiculous P&P (oh sorry "shipping" charges that on balance does not make internet buying any cheaper. It's not just frustrating to receive damaged goods through post, it's infuriating, if they were bought from a shop then they could have been inspected first. Also annoying is that if I had a sudden need for an item I could usually be putting it to use within 30 minutes, no interent service can do that! Interent shops have stock availability issues too so there's no justification there. The list goes on...

[IanN]

Posted by ken anderson. on 12/05/2016 18:32:15:

...the other....... check out BRC hobbies web site and make your own decision ....sad times..

ken anderson...ne...1 end of an era as we knew it dept.

The BRC site says

"temporarily closed from the end of April while we are restructuring the company.We are currently seeking a new team to manage the shop

so, sounds like it's coming back but sorry to hear the news. I called in without fail every time I was that far up the A1 (though my trips are increasingly infrequent these days) and always had top class service from the guys there

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Hope they get a new team, I use BRC for stuff, always been good service

John

[onetenor]

Growing up in Liverpool we were very lucky with LMS I had two which sold kits and odd bits a 10 min walk away .A 10 min bus ride took me to town where there was a hobbies and precisionModel engineering There senior guy opened it as Stan Catch;pole's Model world then moved to bigger premises .If Stan didn't have it it couldn't be got Hobbie closed and it was mainly to Stan despite there being A MODEL SHOP in the St John's Market but that was really a glorified Model shop. Stan has passed away and another Model World rose from the ashes so to speak but nothing on the scale of Stan's place Still in businessI I belivee I now live near Prestatynbut the nearest REAL model shop is in Holywell Rhyl has a trains shop or two atrains shop in Rhuddlan and a cars shop too. Colwyn bay is next place for proper LMS x2 One in Rhos has closedrecently.So it is possible to get to a model shop by car .Or even by bus but it takes some time and is an hourly service Sevice in these shops is good though

[John F]

I don't think it is the end of an era in a doom and gloom sense. Not at all.

The internet has certainly changed the way in which we shop; the fact that I can buy anything I need, at any time of day and not have to worry about getting to the shop is a huge plus point.

Factor that along with the treacheries of finding the time to go to the model shop, dodging the weather, parking and getting there to find the shop closed due to "family reasons" or "back in ten minutes" on the door which was placed an hour ago and you'll find internet shopping looking more attractive.

There is also the fact that once you go into the shop, after the owner has remembered to unlock the door from his return from a quick skive, you run the risks of there not being anything suitable for your needs.

"Yes, I know you have one and a half inch wheels but why don't you do two and a half?" "No, four inch wheels won't do!"

You could argue that you'd like to go into the shop and talk about your purchase, but why? Why can't you save that chat for the model field instead? That way the chap behind you can get served at some point this week!!! Get out of my way, I don't care if 3/8ths is much stronger for wing covering and the fact that Jim's Hurricane probably crashed due to the inferior Taiwanese battery that should never have been installed on a Wednesday! Move!! I want to go home and finish building!!!!!

Here's me thinking the knitting group who meet every Tuesday in the local library could waffle! Sorry ladies but you've got nothing on the guy in front of me!

There is a little bit of concern that the costs including P&P end up with your item being more expensive. Well, some items are but overall it can be massively cheaper online especially if you plan ahead and buy what you need. Having said that many of my single purchases are still cheaper than the price of the model shop and that's not even factoring in the travel costs in getting to the shop.

Sometimes the model shop actually does manage to get into this century and start an online presence, offering mail order items themselves which significantly increases their chances of selling stuff and competing. There are many on this very forum advertising online sales as well as having a shop that you could go and visit.

I do wonder what the average age of the owner of the shops that close is? It is just a theory but are the owners of said shops, on average, the age whereby the golden age of aeromodelling is just a memory? Did they refuse to go online or were they barely making any profit anyway and any changes were bound to spell their doom due to their own inadequate management?

Models shops will still exist, not all will close. Online retailers will always challenge you for your money. Some model shops also diversify into online retailing. Some businesses will fold, some will rise from scratch. We will still buy and fly how we want to. Some people will miss LMS's as, and when, they close and wonder if it is the end.

The reasons are complex and not always the fault of the internet but rather down to their own poor decisions but whatever the reasons supporting the local model shop for the reasons of "If we don't they close" is simply not enough and for me is just a sentimental case of fondness over substance.

Edited By John F on 13/05/2016 08:23:42

[Colin Leighfield]

We can't expect the LMS to always have everything and even with a well-run example there are bound to be disappointments. A balance of buying there when appropriate and using the Internet as well seems to work for me, I buy from the shop when it's practical to do so, which with Mike's Models is quite often. A good LMS is run by enthusiasts who know what they are talking about and going there is also an opportunity for an appropriate natter, as well as bumping into other modellers you wouldn't necessarily usually see. It's a bit like a local pub in that sense, having a social role as well as a pure business function.

Good ones will succeed, particularly if they sell on-line as well. Long may they remain.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by onetenor on 13/05/2016 04:37:58:

Growing up in Liverpool we were very lucky with LMS I had two which sold kits and odd bits a 10 min walk away .A 10 min bus ride took me to town where there was a hobbies and precisionModel engineering There senior guy opened it as Stan Catch;pole's Model world then moved to bigger premises .If Stan didn't have it it couldn't be got Hobbie closed and it was mainly to Stan despite there being A MODEL SHOP in the St John's Market but that was really a glorified Model shop. Stan has passed away and another Model World rose from the ashes so to speak but nothing on the scale of Stan's place Still in businessI I belivee I now live near Prestatynbut the nearest REAL model shop is in Holywell Rhyl has a trains shop or two atrains shop in Rhuddlan and a cars shop too. Colwyn bay is next place for proper LMS x2 One in Rhos has closedrecently.So it is possible to get to a model shop by car .Or even by bus but it takes some time and is an hourly service Sevice in these shops is good though

Colwyn Bay ?.....last model shop I ever saw or used in the Bay was in Greenfield road and that closed down about 15+ years ago ?

I've lived here for the last 16 years and despite the odd ( usually fruitless ) trip to model exchange in Holywell / Greenfield havent used any "local" LMS for all that time. Steve Webbs is nearest and thats almost 2 hour round trip, and at petrol costs the way they are - no chance

As someone said earlier POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE IS PARTLY TO BLAME FOR THEIR DEMISE.

[Jimbo565]

I feel sorry for the staff at Gladstons,always cheerful and helpful and now looking for a job,the young girl in the shop had sent out five applications to local companies and never got any replies.

Not all bad news,Cameron ( the main man on the model side ) has found a new job in the modelling trade just up the coast at Amble.

JC ne23 Ken's apprentice ---- LMS dept.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 12/05/2016 17:22:09:

Well said Ken. When I was a kid there were many, including some shops that included model planes as part of a wider business. (Who remembers Knights in Kingstanding, Birmingham, above the cycle shop)? Gills in Sutton Coldfield, Model Mecca in Aston, Model Aerodrome in Birmingham city centre, etc, etc. Now I'm fortunate to be within 15 minutes of Mike's Models who manage to keep most things in stock and look busy, long may they continue and hopefully prosper. Beyond that though, there's nowhere I can think of within shooting distance.

Don't forget Bob's Models in Small Heath then later in Sheldon, Shirley Models in Shirley, Solihull Models in Acocks Green, Jim Davis' various enterprises, Hancocks in Sparkhill - all long gone. Hancock's was my favourite as a nipper for the beautifully detailed KK 'Flying Scale' models he had hanging in the window.

[MattyB]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 13/05/2016 08:57:00:

...A good LMS is run by enthusiasts who know what they are talking about and going there is also an opportunity for an appropriate natter, as well as bumping into other modellers you wouldn't necessarily usually see. It's a bit like a local pub in that sense, having a social role as well as a pure business function.

Sorry, but I am with Dave Bran and John F - it's the "Social club with a bit of business on the side" attitude that I suspect has been a major contributor to the downfall of many a LMS. If I want to chat with my friends I meet them at the pub (or flying field) or give em a call, not go to a shop!

Too many times I have gone into a shop with the express purpose of buying stuff only to be totally ignored as the staff chinwag with their mates at the counter. The interesting thing is that the shops that remain successful are the ones where I have never experienced that - yes they may have regular customers who become friends over the years, but if someone approaches the counter with goods or a question they are always prioritised.

Even so I still believe the small, standalone LMS is now really a lost cause; no amount of "Support your local hobby shop" tubthumping will save businesses that are not prepared to change and adapt to the current situation. IThey and we all need to accept that there is going to be a smaller number of physical shops in the future, most of those shops will do their primary business online, and the ones that survive will need to follow trends and stock in store only what sells now rather than what we all used to buy 20 or 30 years ago. These large generalists will sit alongside smaller online only specialists in specific modelling disciplines who can offer the niche products for that area. Why did this happen? Well part of it is undoubtedly about the move to online purchasing, but it would be lazy to say that is the sole factor - the ever increasing diversification of the hobby, ageing profile of modelling, the emergence of new technologies like solid state gyros that have enabled multirotors to come in to being, business rates, the VAT loophole for none UK entities with warehouses here... all play their part. I am not sure what the endgame is, but the only thing that is certain is we are not there just yet...

Edited By MattyB on 13/05/2016 17:24:45

[Colin Leighfield]

Matty, I don't think I'm tub-thumping, just stating my experience. I don't disagree with most of what you say, but I still see a place for an efficient well-run business with a degree of diversification and combining an on-line service with over the counter, run by genuine enthusiasts. There's no black and white in this.

Bob, thank you. Fancy me forgetting to include Jim Davis among the others you describe. I'm one of the (thousands)? who had a Slim Jim that survived the best part of 30 years until I finally accepted that something so oil-soaked no longer had a right to live. (It still flew ok, but the Fox Hawk 60 was totally worn out). In its' last years it was painted in blue and yellow USAAC colours with stars, and was the plane that got me into a near-miss incident investigated by the AAIB at Farnborough. I was doing aerobatics at Fradley when the ground shook and two Tornados echelon starboard suddenly appeared overhead from behind at no more than 200ft and disappeared North. They flew underneath the Slim Jim! Mid week I had a call from the club secretary to tell me that RAF Cottesmore had put in a near-miss report to AAIB. It was fully investigated and one of the pilots said that he was flying at 500ft (not true) and suddenly saw a blue and yellow model plane appear inverted above his canopy. Game up! Anyway, it all blew over. It turned out that the RAF had no information that SCRCAC had been flying at Fradley for probably 35 years, nor any detail of the three farm air-fields and one micro-light site within a two mile radius. We haven't seen them since.

I still have the Webra Speed 61R rear induction and Webra Speed 91 that I bought from Jim, as well as the repairable wreck of the Pat French Models Giant Zlin that I bought there. Recently I acquired a PFM Team Special biplane to replace the one originally also bought from Jim and written off after a very long career when I flew it through a fence. Must get that flying this year, I fancy putting a petrol motor in it.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Lot of chat about poor model shops closing down through failing the customer on this thread...you sure there's not a reason such as ill health or retirement being the cause of closure ?

John

[Colin Leighfield]

I'm sure there's some of that. A lot of these probably depended on a committed enthusiast going back a long way and time eventually caught up, with no-one else in place ready to keep it going.

[chris Bond - Bondaero]

Having spent many years in a day job I am now retired. Whatever the business is it cannot be clearer to me that customer service is paramount and that a business's most important customers are the ones it already has. That said I have always been content with the service I have received from model shops that I visited when on the road doing the day job. One often complaint was overhearing very poor advice given to beginners by shop staff. I also now avoid a still trading large model shop after witnessing an extreme example of this.

So now I am now at the start of my fifth year in the model trade all be it in a very small part time on line only way and pretty specialist. In those four years I have begun to understand that many on line shops carry little stock and to my mind that is not a retail business. However it has been an eye opener and I have much more sympathy for shop owners now, and I do lament their passing. It will however continue as the expectation of the customer on price is driven by the international supplier -yes Hobbyking, the expectation on delivery time shortens -Amazon and average age of the modeler continues to increase, and the expectation that paypal costs nothing. (sorry my soapbox that one)

So on line only I say , You would be surprised how may customers will travel quite some distance to have a look at a kit. I also believe that they get the best advice and end up the happiest of our customers, and not just because of the free cup of coffee.(do charge for Earl Grey though)

So will I carry on ? Yes for now unless, someone here wants to take it on Will I branch out to supply general items -not a chance.

So MattyB I very much agree with your last paragraph (sorry do not know how to reproduce a quote)

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

You missed out the miserable customers.

John

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[MattyB]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 13/05/2016 22:23:57:

I can't help but feel that this LMS thread is a load of romantic tosh. Half the RC flyers today have never heard of a Local Model Shop, wouldn't know one if they fell over it.

And I don't mean just young people.

I'm personally happy to order on line as are many of my club mates. I don't lament the passing of the local model shop, as I remember often miserable places with miserable staff and miserable owners.

"Hmmm, wise this Jedi is, the truth he does speak..." 

 

Edited By MattyB on 13/05/2016 23:49:00