john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Nope smoking's a bad example, i enjoy a nice cigar despite you addressing my recognised problem, but i do abide by the law on where i do it. And i repeat the BMFA has done its bit. nothing stopping you and society doing a leafletting campaign though. Edited By john stones 1 on 18/04/2017 15:34:56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guvnor Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Posted by David Mellor on 18/04/2017 15:20:27: No, the BMFA is not doing its bit. It is currently failing to put a simple piece of paper into the hands of ready-to-fly MR drone purchasers at the point-of-sale. In the analogy with smoking, the BMFA is failing to see the wisdom of having "Smoking Kills" printed on cigarette packages. Information provided at the point-of-sale works to change behaviours. Not providing information at the point-of-sale reinforces the idea that it is OK to do what you want with the product. Sorry but it's not the BMFA's job to do this. The costs could be astronomical, and I see no reason why the BMFA membership should pay for it. Can I suggest you try and put some real costs together for this before you go any further. Then divide it by the number of members. I think you might be shocked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 There's info in BMFAs mag and it's website, it's not been passive, it's engaged where it would do the most good. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avtur Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 I'm really not sure why there is such a focus on the BMFA, surely the majority of drones are being sold by businesses/suppliers who have nothing to do with the model hobby and the majority of users have nothing to do with the model hobby. >> I understand the logic of passing information at the point of sale but there are so many points of sale I don't really see how a small organisation such as the BMFA can set about such a task. Retailers in our hobby who have added drones to their catalogues are probably already giving good advice to their customers. >> The CAA are already putting resources into educating people about the use of drones to the point of setting up the "dronesafe" website. I think it is a very good website and it seems right that such information should come from the regulator; I’m sure joe-public will see them as a more authoritative source than the BMFA. That’s not said as a downer on the BMFA I just think that the CAA is likely to be far better known than the BMFA.>> It also keeps drones separate from model aircraft which I think is a good thing. The regulation of our hobby is fine as it is. If there is a need for greater regulation of drones we don’t need a blanket approach where we would suffer additional regulation as collateral damage in the course of applying increased regulation to drones because they are treated as a subset of model aircraft. >> Anyone buying/using a drone simply needs to be pointed towards 'dronesafe', I don't see it being any more complicated than that. Dronesafe have even developed a 'smartphone app' called 'Drone Assist', that strikes me as an apropriate way to communicate with drone users. Edited By avtur on 18/04/2017 17:06:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 My kids where brought up by me n the wife, they're responsible adults..the BMFA played no part in that. Society has all the laws it needs to deal with idiots, BMFA has the Nats to sort and grass to cut at the NFC, leave em be they've done their bit. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Helling Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 1) Does every car salesman/women have to point out the dangers of driving. 2) Does every bicycle salesmen/women have to point out the dangers of cycling. Almost any action "can" cause death or injury if being done irresponsibly. Look at .22 target shooting by sportsmen, they had thier guns banned and has that stopped people being harmed by firearms...NO! Does all the legislation regarding drivers and cyclists stop people being harmed by cars and cycles...No! Legislation NO Education YES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 The CAA Posted by John Helling on 18/04/2017 18:25:34: 1) Does every car salesman/women have to point out the dangers of driving. No , because you have passed a driving test before you drive your new car. 2) Does every bicycle salesmen/women have to point out the dangers of cycling. No, because if you are involved in an accident it is you that will be injured, not a third party. Almost any action "can" cause death or injury if being done irresponsibly. Your point is? Look at .22 target shooting by sportsmen, they had thier guns banned and has that stopped people being harmed by firearms...NO! Precisely. That is why the proposed EASA regulations will do nothing to improve safety. Does all the legislation regarding drivers and cyclists stop people being harmed by cars and cycles...No! Legislation NO Education YES The CAA are trying to educate but it should be mandated that all 'drones' are sold with a CAA 'health warning', clearly this would require legislation. With the greatest respect David the BMFA is a well meaning amateur organisation with limited funds and no legal status, it is not it's place to inform prospective drone flyers of their legal responsibilities. They don't see themselves as 'model flyers' but have bought themselves a 'photographic accessory' to add another dimension to their picture taking skills. Edited By Piers Bowlan on 18/04/2017 20:37:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 BMFA don't govern me nor our club, if they do...grass wants cutting n can we have fish n chips 14 times for Thursday night..oh n mushy peas for me please John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guvnor Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Posted by David Mellor on 18/04/2017 22:34:54: The BMFA is doing an excellent job, but is clearly (in my view) struggling to keep up with, let alone govern, the rapid changes in technology that have spawned cheap and widely available drones. The BMFA negotiates with the CAA to define the limitations within which all model aircraft (including drones) are flown in the UK. If the BMFA begins to lose significant governance of drones, then it will find itself in a weaker position in subsequent negotiations with the CAA. For its part, the CAA appears to be coming under greater pressure to tighten regulation of drones. That the BMFA may become weaker in its ability to govern drones in UK airspace makes it all the more likely that the CAA will have no choice but to increase regulation. Which may affect us all, as indeed it is already set to do in other countries. Clearly it is not going to lead to a good outcome for model flying in the UK if these trends (i.e. if the BMFA were to progressively lose governance over drones and if the CAA were to come under pressure to further regulate them) were to develop. Sorry, but you really are heading up the wrong tree here. The CAA aren't stupid. The CAA know the difference between a drone and a model aeroplane. The CAA have stated to people I know that they are 'not interested in what BMFA members do, and are quite happy with what BMFA members do'. They understand what is happening with the drone epidemic and they understand that it has nothing to do with the BMFA. The BMFA should keep drones at arms length, and let the CAA and the Police do any 'governing' required. Why on earth should the BMFA have anything to do with this market. THe first major accident or fatality will instantly tar ALL model flyers with the 'drone' brush. Sorry David but I believe your proposal can only lead to more problems, not less... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Posted by David Mellor on 18/04/2017 22:48:46: Posted by john stones 1 on 18/04/2017 22:41:15: BMFA don't govern me nor our club, if they do...grass wants cutting n can we have fish n chips 14 times for Thursday night..oh n mushy peas for me please John If you hold a BMFA membership card or have BMFA insurance, then the BMFA do indeed govern your flying activities, John. Good governance doesn't mean someone sitting on your shoulder or telling you what to do. It simply means providing a workable framework of basic rules to keep you, and those around you, reasonably safe in your flying activities. Perhaps you aren't a member of BMFA? Edited By David Mellor on 18/04/2017 22:49:49 Yep i'm a BMFA member and clubs affiliated. Self governing though, you don't need a handbook for common sense. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Helling Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Piers Bowlan Can you guarantee that everyone who drives a car has passed a driving test, carries car insurance or a legit MOT, NO YOU CANT you should look at youtube at cycle accidents to see the number of people injured by cyclists doing the most stupid things. Wake up and smell the coffee, you obviously have your eyes wide shut... John H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Gentlemen, there are ocassions when you simply have to accept that the "other guy" has a different opinion from yours. I think this is one such occassion. This argument has run its course now. Everyone has had ample opportunity to express their views. Neither side is going to "win" as the other holds their views equally strongly. So let's move on please from this rather sterile debate. Thanks BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Incorrect the BMFA make no laws, we govern ourselves under the laws of the land and we're philosophical about it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 The BMFA will not be recognised by newcomers as a governing authority (whether they are or they aren't), and the CAA have stated publically they do not investigate or enforce anything to do with drones. As a result to have any influence with Joe Public I suspect any note would have to be signed by the Police, a group whose purpose and role is understood by all. The chance of that happening though must be near to zero... On the two occasions I have tried to engage law enforcement to address illegal drone flying the officers in question have had no real knowledge of the law with respect to SUAS, nor any conspicuous desire to enforce it. I suspect this is part of the reason the current EASA proposals aim to make most flying legal only in predetermined places, that way any officer can quickly and simply identify if a drone is being operated illegally simply by location. Edited By MattyB on 19/04/2017 02:09:54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 Posted by Guvnor on 18/04/2017 22:52:54: The CAA know the difference between a drone and a model aeroplane. . . . Why on earth should the BMFA have anything to do with this market. THe first major accident or fatality will instantly tar ALL model flyers with the 'drone' brush. ALL model aircraft are "drones". What you are referring to are Multi Rotor aircraft (MR). People have been killed by fixed wing model aircraft quite a few times over the years, sadly. Someone being killed by a MR will not change the balance. Why should the BMFA not have anything to do with MR's? We fly gliders, planes, helicopters, autogyros, paragliders, pylon racers, jets and ornithopters to name a few types, all of which the BMFA are happy to encourage and ally with. All of which have modellers who do not like, or tolerate, other types within the list. I know of one who hates heli fliers with a passion! Why is there no room in the BMFA and within our hobby for multi rotor aircraft? Edited By John F on 19/04/2017 08:51:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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