Mini Super

[Dai Fledermaus]

This photograph of the pre production Keil Kraft Mini Super clearly shows the tail plane mounted above the fuselage instead of the more familiar position below the fuselage as in the production version. Other than to make it easier to band on the tail plane, I cant think of any other reason why the change was made. It certainly wasn't to improve the look of the model. Does anyone have any thoughts? Would the change have altered the flying characteristics in any way?

Also, does anyone know what the wing loading is? or perhaps give me the wing area and the approximate weight.

[Nigel R]

You might find something

here: https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5107

or here: https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=7900

[Tim Ballinger]

Have to look at my old photos but I remember mine as having solid windows as opposed to the acetate I see in your picture. Could be wrong but not sure that fin extension was not smaller on my production version , certainly as you say the tailplane was bottom mounted. Sadly no idea of the wing loading; doubt I even knew what wing loading was when I flew it.

I certainly messed around with it a fair bit, started on single channel and an os15 then 4ch & enya 19 then lowered dihedral and added ailerons and the final travesty was a symmetrical section, no dihedral and an os 40 in which configuration it was lethal. Only threw out the old airframe last year as it happens.

None of that you wanted to know but you turned on my old memories and it just came out !

Tim

[Tim Ballinger]

My mistake , my original did have windows. I must have filled them in at some stage.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

I suspect one reason for moving the tailplane to underneath may have been so it could be secured with rubber bands.....this would have allowed the tailplane to be packed with plywood shims to alter the incidence & help to trim the model. Useful in ye olde syngle channel days.....

Weight of my electric powered version is about 3lbs from memory. Wingspan is 48" & chord is about 71/2" so about 360 sq in area giving a wing loading of about 19 oz per sq ft.

Very nice flyer...if you build one keep it standard, if you decide to fit ailerons drop the dihedral to about 1/2" per side....I didn't & it turns better on rudder than ailerons....

[PatMc]

IIRC the Mini Super was Boddo's first commercial design. If you compare it with his 45" span Tyro the resemblance is obvious.

[Stuphedd]

These photos are 1968, I know its a mini Super , but is it a Sub Mini Super ? it shows the tailplane mounted on the bottom .

It helped me teach myself to fly ! the half finished planes are the original Ugly Stick , and a Flea Fly, Phil Kraft

and the little Cox powered Concorde .and a Kiel Kraft 3/6 penny SE5 cox 010 powered 

 

Sorry they are on their side??

 

Pete

Edited By Pete Willbourn on 05/02/2018 20:21:43

[Stuphedd]

It must be a Sub Mini Super, I can see a Mills 75 in there !

cheers

[Nigel R]

"compare it with his 45" span Tyro the resemblance is obvious"

...much like most any Boddington cabin design! All very, very, very similar in terms of proportions, wing section, etc.

[Stuphedd]

I agree with you Nigel R

I actually fell out with Boddington when I sugested all his planes were the same , they all used the same ballooning Clark Y airfoil and the only difference was the size !

we never spoke again !

[Dai Fledermaus]

Thanks for your feedback fellers. Steve Hargreaves confirmed what I suspected that the tailplane was moved to make it easier to adjust the trim when single channel RC was the norm.

Having checked, Mini Super, it seems, was originally designed by Ernie Webster and later developed by David Boddington, hence its resemblance to other Boddington designs.

[Peter Miller]

Posted by PatMc on 05/02/2018 20:04:51:

IIRC the Mini Super was Boddo's first commercial design. If you compare it with his 45" span Tyro the resemblance is obvious.

I once said to Boddo that the Tyro looked an awful lot like a Super 60. HE was decidedly annoyed.at that!!!!

Glad someone else agrees with me. I didn't realise that the Mini Super was a Boddo design.

[kc]

In Aviation Modeller November 1996 Boddo explained all about how he came to design the Mini Super - to fit in his Ford Anglia so his wife could travel as well. No mention of a high mounted tailplane there. Boddington said there that he designed the Mini Super to be similar but smaller than the Ernie Webster / KK Super 60. " adapted from the original Ernie Webster design by David Boddington " it says there. Note that that AMI article says the Mini Super span is 45 inches but actually the included free plan is 48 inches. The plan says its a 75percent version of the Super 60. ( is the Super 60 slightly larger than 60 inch span? )

The airfoil that Boddo used in many of his classic high wing designs -Tyro, Barnstormer etc - seems to be the same as that used many years before by Vic Smeed in his Electra etc. Doesn't seem to be a Clark Y exactly..

[kc]

Both the Sub Mini and the Micro Super plans on Outerzone show low mounted tailplane.

[Jimbo565]

Here's mine,suitably modified with ailerons and flaps and reduced dihedral and OS15 up front, goes like a dream.

[Nigel R]

"Doesn't seem to be a Clark Y exactly.."

What you have there is a genuine original Clarks size 10 and a half airfoil.

"I once said to Boddo that the Tyro looked an awful lot like a Super 60. HE was decidedly annoyed.at that!!!!"

How could you possibly overlook the modifications made to the wingtip shape!?

I always thought the Tyro was just a slightly simplified copy version.

The RM Trainer I'm finishing is identical layout and proportions again, with an even simpler all sheet construction.

[Birgir]

Hello

I’m a proud owner of a Keil Kraft Mini Super. It was built by me and my dad in the early seventies, ‘72 I think. It was a Keil Kraft kit and I still have the original box and plans.

It has had several rebuilds and some modifications over the years but I’ve been flying it every summer since 2013 when I did the last rebuild. I also did some modifications, ailerons, less dihedral, steerable front wheel and so on.

It has gained some weight over the years, just like some of us and today it is 1.835 gr (64.7 oz). The last modification, a bigger fuel tank welded together to fit available space, added about 40 gr. The original kit had a tiny tin tank.

The wing area is 2.267 sq. ft. not counting the middle section so the wing loading is up to 28.5 oz per sq ft. in my model. That is a bit heavy and the landing speed is also a bit fast but a heavier model suits the windy weather in Iceland very well.

The original plans in the kit came on two sheets, clearly marked 48” wingspan and are signed by Ernie Webster if I’m reading it right. I didn’t know that David Boddington had a hand in the design. Can anyone explain to me how that came about and who is the original designer of the Mini Super?

​Birgir

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Alan H]

Posted by Percy Verance on 01/04/2018 10:06:33:

Pete

Mr. Boddington's designs do not all use flat bottomed airfoils. The Expo 80 from 1971 for example, uses a semi-symmetrical section. I bought an Expo 80 kit in 1978. The section was speciically chosen to allow the model to fly well in wind. There have been others with non Clark Y sections too. It would be fair to say that Boddo did stick to what he knew worked well though.

Boddo's Ghost Rider series went as far as using a thick symmetrical section.

[DeeBee1]

That's lovely looking model Birgir.

To answer your question, Boddo designed the original Mini Super, which was a 47" taildragger, based on the Super 60 because he wanted something more transportable. He then approached Eddie Keil who purchased the design and kitted it for Keil Kraft in the form we know.

The full story was published with the plans in AMI and is now on Outerzone:

**LINK**

[Birgir]

Thanks DeeBee - this is a fascinating story

B.

[Nigel R]

Several versions of Mini Super are on outerzone, the original Keil Kraft redrawn from a 1996 mag article, essentially the same model, and a CAD version of the original.

CAD

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5107

1996 mag

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=7900

Then you can see the DB design bureau at work...

Simplifying the Mini Super to its barest minimum in the form of the Mini Pronto:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5228

and scaling that up for a 54 inch standard Pronto:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=8748

and sticking a cabin profile on the fuselage to get a 52 inch RM Trainer:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6001

(which kind of looks a lot like the more complex build of a previous effort, the 52 inch Tyro

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=558 )

and putting the wing on some cabanes to make a 52 inch Barnstormer:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=8785

and getting busy with a photocopier reducing it to a 39in Barnstormer:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=4982

or was it 29 inches?

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=8142

or was it blown up to a whopping 89 inches?

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6493

and at some point a second wing was stuck on a Super 60 at half scale for a Bi Mini:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=3310

we could go on!

[kc]

Percy Verance seemed to say the other day that Peggy Sue 2 is a Mini Super size model, but that's not correct! It's the original Peggy Sue - an Aviation Modeller Int plan - at 50 inch span that is around the Mini Super size. The current RCME plan is the larger 58 inch Peggy Sue 2

And don't be fooled by the headline in AMI linked above about the span of the Mini Super -it's not 45 inch on the actual plan in that magazine but nearer 48.

Edited By kc on 04/04/2018 12:49:43

[Piers Bowlan]

It seems from posts on this forum and elsewhere that people are still building the Junior/Super 60, RM Trainer, and Veron Mini Robot to name just three classic designs but there doesn't appear to be the same interest in the Mini Super, I wonder why. I always thought that the design looked 'right' when I saw it flying on Epson Downs many years ago. Anyone built one recently?

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 05/04/2018 07:35:30