EU. LBT

[CARPERFECT]

Need some correct info on the EU rule of LBT receivers/transmitters. i am looking at the Fr SKY tranisx9d. FR sky make loads of receivers. X . D. V AND L . I have 3 FR SKY delta 8 and been told by T9 Hobby they are not compatible . well they do work , as my friend has tried them,, bit of messing with the tx and all ok. But are they legal ? If they are legal with my Futaba they should be ok with FR SKY. i was looking at the V8FR-11 ON Hobby King At less that £20 but they are not LBT

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

My understanding is that anything that is not LBT is legal, provided you purchased it before the regs changed and the LBT requirement came in. However it is illegal (I believe) to purchase and then use non-LBT equipment now.

Until very recently I had one model which still had non-LBT firmware in its X8R FrSky Rx, this was because it was very difficult to access. I had to have both transmitter protocols (LBT and non-LBT) on the SD card of my Taranis and reload which ever I needed! As the Rx in question dated from before the requirement to use LBT it was legal.

BEB

[Peter Christy]

BEB is right in that only EU compatible equipment can now be legally sold. A set of gear doesn't have to be LBT to meet EU requirements, but if it isn't, then there are quite severe restrictions on its usage of the band. In crude terms, it can only transmit for 10% of the available time. (Yes, I know that's an over-simplification, but its easy to understand!)

However, equipment sold or "in the supply chain" before January 2015 (IIRC) can still be used legally under "grandfather rights".

The Delta 8 uses an old Futaba format (FHSS), which I believe is now obsolete - but I stand to be corrected, OR FrSky D8 - another obsolete format, now replaced by D16, OR HiTec FHSS, about which I know nothing.

FrSky D series receivers can still be sold, as the utilisation of the band falls within the EU power output and media utilisation requirements. D-series transmitters, however, no longer meet these requirements, and can only be operated under "grandfather rights".

Sorry if this sounds confusing, but it is!

So basically, your Delta 8 receivers can still be used with "obsolete" transmitters under "grandfather rights", but won't work with modern equipment that is compatible with the latest (post January 2015) EU regulations.

Only the EU could come up with such an appallingly complex and technically unnecessary mess! Excuse me while I go and bang my head against a brick wall.........!

--

Pete

[CARPERFECT]

All clear as mud. lol.

First the Delta 8 is not FHSS, IT`S S-FHSS and they they work, Well one does, as we have only tried one, and that one is pre 2015. And thats with a new tx bought this year T9 hobby sell XR,D8,XM and v series receivers, whether they are legal or not . But i emailed them and asked the question. and they told me that i should only use LBT . LIKE RX6 AND 8 . X4R 6 AND 8 PLUS S6 AND 8R. So i am thinking stuff the EU. BREXIT here i come . i like the look and the spec of the D8R-11 PLUS . the new X SERIES 6 AND 8 the x6r and x8r come with two types of antenna eu and universal. have a look on T9 HOBBY SPORT

Edited By CARPERFECT on 08/08/2018 19:44:57

[CARPERFECT]

 Taken from T9 hobby sports website

FrSky X6R Receiver - 6/16 channels

 

This next generation FrSky receiver features SBUS, Smart Port and RSSI and perfectly complements the on-board XJT module of Taranis, as well as the separate XJT module for other systems.

Please note: The X6R is part of the revised FrSky XR series receiver range that now have the ball-clip antenna attachment feature, so the PCB antennae can quickly be changed for standard antennae - and vice versa.

The X6R comes in 2 versions, one with both types of antenna and one with standard antenna only

Edited By CARPERFECT on 08/08/2018 19:48:50

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by CARPERFECT on 08/08/2018 19:41:33:

All clear as mud. lol.

First the Delta 8 is not FHSS, IT`S S-FHSS and they they work, Well one does, as we have only tried one, and that one is pre 2015. And thats with a new tx bought this year T9 hobby sell XR,D8,XM and v series receivers, whether they are legal or not . But i emailed them and asked the question. and they told me that i should only use LBT . LIKE RX6 AND 8 . X4R 6 AND 8 PLUS S6 AND 8R. So i am thinking stuff the EU. BREXIT here i come . i like the look and the spec of the D8R-11 PLUS . the new X SERIES 6 AND 8 the x6r and x8r come with two types of antenna eu and universal. have a look on T9 HOBBY SPORT

Edited By CARPERFECT on 08/08/2018 19:44:57

I don't think you can do the "stuff the EU" thing! You see the EU doesn't really make laws that run in the UK, or any other member state for that matter, what is does is lay down the foundation and framework within which national governments locally legislate. So, as far as I am aware, its UK law you would be breakng not EU, so until (and if) it it is repealled (about as likely as me being elected pope!) it still holds in the UK - BREXIT or not.

BEB

[PatMc]

I take a different view from BEB & Peter.

T9 only supply CE certified RC gear which is your guarantee it's legal to use. The Delta, D series & V II series Rx's they sell can be used with a Taranis X9D that has been set up in Opentx Companion to allow access to D8 mode transmission. I've seen nothing to suggest that this is illegal but if you have doubts then for £23.40 you could plug in a DJT module (from T9, which of course means it carries CE certification) to do the same job.

Since the all of the Rx's mentioned are current, I don't see how "grandfather rights" (BTW a British legal concept, pre EU) come into play.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Yes but surely T9 are selling into an international market on the internet, so they can sell non-EU legal stuff to buyers outside the UK - hence why they have it. But not to us - that's my point. We can't buy equipment that breaks the law surely?

Its like buying video transmitters for FPV which we discussed recently. BangGood and the like can sell Tx's with output levels that are illegal in this country, but legal elsewhere. That doesn't make it legal for us to buy them to here though!

While I wouldn't use the term "grandfather rights" personally, I can understand the point Peter is making - basically if you bought it before the rule change you can still use it.

But I would definitely agree that the whole scene is complete chaos and as clear as mud!

BEB

[CARPERFECT]

Here is what it says on the Hobby king Spec, i have underlined the two main bits. SO I AM COVERED. Certified in EU and compatible with X. D AND V8.

RED certified for use in EU

Model name: Taranis X9D
Number of Channels: up to 16
Operating Voltage Range: 6-15v (2s, 3s Lipos are acceptable)
Operating Current: 260mA maximum (both RF module and backlight are on)
Operating Temperature: -10~60C
Backlit LCD Screen: 212 x 64 Monochrome
Model Memories: 60 (expandable by SD card)
Compatibility: FrSky X series, D series and V8-II series receivers
stick mode: Mode 2 (Left hand throttle)

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

No, it says "compatable" - but not legal! My Taranis as I say will run with non-LBT Tx's and as I say again I have done so until recently - so its compatable and the transmitter is compkliant. But that doesn't make a new receiver compliant! They are talking about a transmitter, not a receiver. It could be read as simply saying "if you have any old non-LBT stuff this will run with it"?

BEB

[CARPERFECT]

SO what your telling me is all new receivers sold in the EU should be LBT ?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

No, that's not quite what I'm saying. As far as I understand it would be legal to sell a non-LBT Rx, but only for use outside of the EU.

So, T9 could sell a non-LBT to a cusomer intending to use it in say Iceland. But it would be illegal to sell it to you or me intending to use it inside the EU.

BEB

[PatMc]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/08/2018 22:03:15:

Yes but surely T9 are selling into an international market on the internet, so they can sell non-EU legal stuff to buyers outside the UK - hence why they have it. But not to us - that's my point. We can't buy equipment that breaks the law surely?

While I wouldn't use the term "grandfather rights" personally, I can understand the point Peter is making - basically if you bought it before the rule change you can still use it.

Within the last 6 - 12 months I've bought a DJT module in order to use first generation V8 Rx's with my Taranis, a V8R7-II Rx, a couple of V8R4-II & a D4R-2 Rx for use in lightweight models. All purchases were from T9 or other UK retailer (none from HK) all shipped to my home address & carrying CE marks with VAT quoted on each sale. There can have been no doubt they were all to be used in the UK. The CE marks tell me that the vendor hasn't broken any law selling them to me & that it's perfectly legal for me to use them in the UK.

I didn't buy before the rule changes (re LBT) so "grandfather rights" has no bearing on the legality of their use.

BTW my elderly X9D Taranis has EU compliant LBT firmware with D8 mode available.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

We'll just have to agree to differ then Pat - altough if you are right, I have absolutely no idea what the legislation or the imposition of LBT would be about if you can just ignore it!

Also bear this in mind, I can buy a 200mW video Tx and have it shipped to my UK adress - still doesn't make it legal for me to use it in the UK. The supplier will simply defend thenmselves by saying "how I'm I supposed to know where the buyer was planning to use it?"

BEB

[PatMc]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/08/2018 22:57:51:

No, that's not quite what I'm saying. As far as I understand it would be legal to sell a non-LBT Rx, but only for use outside of the EU.

So, T9 could sell a non-LBT to a cusomer intending to use it in say Iceland. But it would be illegal to sell it to you or me intending to use it inside the EU.

BEB

BEB, I think you have this wrong, as per my previous post.

Forgot to mention, in common with many other Horus owners, I've chosen to have D8 mode available on the internal module of my Horus X12S.
Now that definitely doesn't fall into grandad's territory & I'm confident that no law is being breached.

[PatMc]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/08/2018 23:09:44:

We'll just have to agree to differ then Pat - altough if you are right, I have absolutely no idea what the legislation or the imposition of LBT would be about if you can just ignore it!

Also bear this in mind, I can buy a 200mW video Tx and have it shipped to my UK adress - still doesn't make it legal for me to use it in the UK. The supplier will simply defend thenmselves by saying "how I'm I supposed to know where the buyer was planning to use it?"

BEB

Simples, he doesn't sell it with CE certification.

[CARPERFECT]

Well thanks you all for your input, As normal ask two two people the same question and you may get two answers, i will try find the legal bit on the internet somewhere, telegraph and wireless act

[Piers Bowlan]

I was under the impression (probably mistakenly) that LBT only applied to Transmitters. The clue here being in the name 'Listen before transmit', which is wot transmitters should do . I know that non LBT JR and Spektrum DMS2 receivers were still available post 2015, Now all sold out of course, unless you buy Orange ones from HK.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Piers Bowlan on 09/08/2018 06:57:55:

I was under the impression (probably mistakenly) that LBT only applied to Transmitters. The clue here being in the name 'Listen before transmit', which is wot transmitters should do . I know that non LBT JR and Spektrum DMS2 receivers were still available post 2015, Now all sold out of course, unless you buy Orange ones from HK.

The transmission regulations apply to everything that transmits and that includes receivers which transmit telemetry data back. The are two means of complying with the standard (which was available for at least two years before it became into force), either transmit at low power for a very short duration or check the channel is free and then transmit at a higher power for longer (LBT). Frsky first tried the non-LBT method but it wasn't a success for everybody, so they later brought in the LBT system.

[Piers Bowlan]

Yes Steve, that is now my understanding, current Spectrum receivers are backwards compatible with DSM2 (they do both). New Spectrum Transmitters are only allowed to transmit on DSMX in the EU as they are LBT compliant. The same Speky transmitters are sold in the US with both DMSX and DSM2 functioning (presumably just different software).

So what you are saying Frank is that if you buy a new DSMX/DSM2 Spectrum receiver and operate it with a pre 2015 DSM2 Tx, then it is illegal?

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 09/08/2018 08:54:05

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Piers Bowlan]

You have lost me there Steve, I am out of my depth. Help! Where is Pete Christy when you need him?

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/08/2018 22:03:15:

Yes but surely T9 are selling into an international market on the internet, so they can sell non-EU legal stuff to buyers outside the UK - hence why they have it. But not to us - that's my point. We can't buy equipment that breaks the law surely?

I think we can, actually! Certainly, back in the late 70s / early 80s, at the height of the CB boom, it was perfectly legal to buy, sell and own CB gear. It just wasn't legal to *use* it!

As far as I can tell (and I am NOT a lawyer), all the EU rules did was to prohibit the *import*, after January 2015, of non-compliant equipment.

However, if the equipment was "in the supply chain", ie: either in a warehouse, or on a freighter from China, it could still be imported and sold *and used* quite legally. It is also legal to continue using non-compliant equipment purchased before January 2015.

Yes, I know its a mess, and it doesn't make any sense, but that's what happens when politicians make technical decisions! Its also pretty much un-enforceable, almost a definition of bad legislation!

I'm trying to prepare a comprehensive answer to some of the points raised in this thread, but it will take a while, so please be patient. It isn't easy to explain in a comprehensible manner!

--

Pete

 

Edited By Peter Christy on 09/08/2018 09:32:28

[Cuban8]

I don't lose sleep over all this stuff as I use both DSM2 and DSMX quite happily but...........why is it that the US haven't banned DSM2 etc on their new trannies and the EU have deemed it as unsuitable for use on our new equipment? What is so different about the radio environment in Europe to that of the US?