Max Thrust Riot versus Wot4

[Geoff S]

I'm on my 3rd Riot. I wore the first out with several 100 flights and it was my go-to model in any remotely flyable weather. Evebtually things began to get unstuck near the tail and for some toally inexplicable reason when I flew it after the repair the ailerons were reversed - I ALWAYS checked control operation and direction, or so I thought. It was quite windy and I thought at first the eratic behaviour was due to that. Once I realised, I flew a circuit on rudder but I automatically tried to level te wings at the last moment with the obvious result.

I stripped it down and found out why they're so rugged and the undercarriage stays in place - there's a ply crutch inside the foam to which the undercarriage is screwed. I'm actually using the original u/c legs on the Liddle Stik I scratch-built last month.

My secnd one was being used to try out a Frsky S6R stabilised receiver and I was a couple of mistakes high and flew into the only cloud in the sky which was a lot lower than I thought. When the model re-appeared it was high and so far downwind I had difficulty orientating and lost it, never to be found despite some hours searching! So I bought a 3rd (actually a Devil from King's Lynn Models) which I still have.

Mine does spin OK. I assume you've removed the lump of steel at the front which keeps it in forward CoG/trainer mode? If you remove that and get the CoG back it'll spin OK and be quite aerobatic in standard 3S LiPo/12x6 prop mode.

I also have a Wot4 Mk2 ARTF which I fly on 4S. It's not really fair to compare the 2 models because the Wot4 (also from KLMS) is wood, more expensive once you've bought a decent motor/esc and a bit bigger.

I like them both and they're both sturdy warm-up models.

Geoff

[Keith Miles 2]

Geoff S,

Thanks for that. Always good to receive a polite and constructive response in a thread!

I am also pleased to hear from another flyer who agrees that the Riot and the Wot4 cannot be directly compared.

Other than the fact that they are both high wingers of similar size and wing design they are chalk and cheese, in my view, in terms of quality, performance and, unsurprisingly, price.

I have owned 6 Wot4s, all Irvine 46 powered. Two were victims of “dumb thumb syndrome”, 3 were victims of mid-air collisions (with only 2 models in the air on each occasion!) and the last landed in a tree when the motor quit!

Not wishing to build yet another, somebody recommended a Riot and the review further persuaded me although I had reservations about the claims made for it from the outset!

I’m no “hotshot” nor a beginner but the Riot, after overcoming a number of constructional issues, instantly felt like a low powered trainer and hardly a “riot” to fly and certainly no match, on the standard set up, for a Wot4 although it now flies okay and certainly better on the 12x6 APC than with the 11x5 supplied. I did borrow a 4S and only then did I get comparable performance but having already bought three 3000 3S, I was reluctant to spend any more money on it as all I wanted was a “hack” to get me to “B” Cert standard. I have other models but, at present, I prefer not to push my luck with those!

Thanks for the CG tip (my favourite cuppa) regarding removal of the nose weight, something which ain’t mentioned in the manual! I did read, in another thread, that others had done this but only, as I recall, when the power train was upgraded so will keep that in mind and let you know how I get on.

Many thanks!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 08/06/2020 23:23:24

[Geoff S]

IIRC I replaced the piece of steel with either ply or balsa because it supports some of the foam. It does transform the performance without it.

Geoff

[Shaun Walsh]

Can anyone who has removed the metal weight in the nose tell me where the COG was after removal?

Thanks

[Geoff S]

I don't think I ever checked the CoG but I also push the 3S 2200 LiPo as far back as I can. It doesn't make the elevator particularly sensitive so it's certainly not extreme.

Geoff

[Kim Taylor]

I use a 3S 3200 LiPo, so a bit weightier than 'standard', so I removed the weight.

With the weight removed I seem to recall that the c of g is 90mm from the leading edge, i.e. the back end of the suggested range.

For me, the model flies much better with the c of g in the 90 - 95 range, but if you're unsure, work your way back with the c of g in stages until you're comfortable.

Kim

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Shaun Walsh on 09/06/2020 16:59:52:

Can anyone who has removed the metal weight in the nose tell me where the COG was after removal?

Thanks

In case you’ve lost the manual, it says 75 - 90mm back from LE. It does also say that the CG can be moved further back but doesn’t say by how much! As I said previously, it also makes no mention of removal of the nose weight!

Obviously, with a rearward CG, one needs to be ready to push in some prompt DOWN elevator, if necessary, to prevent a stall on take-off and then add down trim, as necessary, at a safe height!

My intention (when I get round to it!) was to remove the nose weight and then rebalance as necessary, to get the CG at 90mm to begin with or, alternatively to add, if feasible, a bit of temporary weight to the tail. The former, of course, would be a better option for avoiding increasing overall weight but the latter possibly easier to do!

The weather forecast isn’t looking too good for the next few days, so an air test of mine is unlikely to happen just yet, anyway!

Hopefully, if I can sort this one out, it will the last of the “fixes”!

P.S. Cheers, Kim! I’m using 3000 3s as well. CG was within range but can’t remember where. Need to check it!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 09/06/2020 23:44:07

[Geoff S]

Being a hoarder of potentially useful bits and bobs I've found what I think is the steel weight from one of my Riots. It's quite substantial (35x20x12mm) and weighs 66 grams. No wonder removing it makes such a difference.

Geoff

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Geoff S on 10/06/2020 00:29:02:

Being a hoarder of potentially useful bits and bobs I've found what I think is the steel weight from one of my Riots. It's quite substantial (35x20x12mm) and weighs 66 grams. No wonder removing it makes such a difference.

Geoff

I’d hang on to that, it might come in handy for something......or other.

Make sure you put it somewhere safe in order that you won’t be able to find it when you need it.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Never owned a Riot, some members have them though, they seem to like em.

Free lunches, I do know something about, had umpteen and after comparison, I concluded they all cost me nowt.

+1 for free lunches.

[Tim Ballinger]

This does not really contribute to comparisons between the standard size riot and wot but I have owned a Riot XL since I came back into modelling in 2016. It survived being bounced around as I got back in the groove and I took my B test with it. I still take it our for a regular thrash. You might gather I rather like it. It does everything , flicks, spins, bunts the lot. Knife edge is a challenge but that’s me rather than the plane. Sadly they are not in production anymore, something to do with the Jig ownerShip when the factory making them went out of business.

Tim

[Geoff S]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 10/06/2020 01:26:41:

Posted by Geoff S on 10/06/2020 00:29:02:

Being a hoarder of potentially useful bits and bobs I've found what I think is the steel weight from one of my Riots. It's quite substantial (35x20x12mm) and weighs 66 grams. No wonder removing it makes such a difference.

Geoff

I’d hang on to that, it might come in handy for something......or other.

Make sure you put it somewhere safe in order that you won’t be able to find it when you need it.

Actually, I have all 3 lumps of steel from my Riots. They are in a tray along with bits of lead ready to use as ballast should I need it My wife is always surprised that I'm (usually) able to find anything quite quickly in my chaotic workshop when she asks to borrow something or needs a minor repair (not to herself, obviously)

I'm nothing if not untidy but organised.

Geoff

[Keith Miles 2]

John, sorry to hear that your modelling expenditure seems to have driven you to rely on charity hand outs. Bon appetit!

Tim, Perhaps you could buy a Wot4 XL and start a new thread? That said my brother in law has had a standard Wot4. He bought a Riot XL from a club member a little while back. He rarely crashes models but the Riot now needs repair, apparently, he says, due to an attempted bunt a little too close to the green stuff!

Geoff, never tell your wife that she needs repair lest you suffer the same fate. You know it makes sense!

[Keith Miles 2]

Update (Shaun, Kim, Geoff?).

Balance was checked and was 90mm slightly nose down, as assembled, with 3000mah battery.

To get 95mm, balanced level, required 15g of stick-on weights under the tail end of the fuselage.

Tried it again today. Out of numerous attempts, only got it to spin twice, so slight progress! Even then, unlike the Wot4s I’ve had, it didn’t spin flat but steeply nose down.

So, I’ll see if I can remove that nose weight and replace with balsa or ply, as suggested, and rebalance.

My brother-in-law’s Riot XL, he tells me, spins fine. As for the few other Riot owners in the club, only one has been at the field recently but he’s not long been cleared solo so I wouldn’t want him to extend his skills too quickly by asking him to try his! I can’t fly it myself either because our club Covid19 rules don’t currently allow sharing of models or transmitters or buddying!

Again, given the marketing claims made for the Riot, it seems odd to me that with a CG now 5mm beyond quoted range, that it still struggles to spin, unless it is very sensitive in terms of overall weight/wing loading.

[Keith Miles 2]

Just had another look at my injured Wot4 and I'm now thinking it might be worth repairing it!

Worst damage is to the fin which has been knocked over to one side, but one or two other bits of minor damage look as though they might be fairly easy to put right.

As the collision with a tree was due to a well used and slowly deteriorating Irvine46 going "dead stick" on downwind, I'm now toying with converting it to electric, especially in view of my relative disappointment with the Riot! It is the GP/EP version, so that obviously helps!

I'm currently searching through the Wot4 threads for guidance and inspiration!

Cost of a new OS46 is about the same as that for an electric conversion exclusive, of course, of the additional short term cost of batteries and that being weighed against the ongoing cost of fuel and relative flight times!

Decisions, decisions.......

[Keith Berriman]

Keith Have a quick look on 4 Max web pages for power set up and costings and you an get the electric motor set up as a kit

[Keith Berriman]

Just had a quick look and added upto £199 and thats just one 4S lipo at £69

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by RC Plane Flyer on 16/06/2020 21:05:51:

Just had a quick look and added upto £199 and thats just one 4S lipo at £69

Will certainly take a look at 4Max. I hear many good things about the company. Many thanks.

My costings for the conversion were based on Ripmax recommended set up, about £120 excluding batteries. Hobby King (pardon my language!) batteries start at about £40 upwards.

I'm very much at the lower end of the knowledge curve when it comes to electric set ups!

I would certainly be looking at performance no less than IC40 power or the exercise would be pretty pointless!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 16/06/2020 21:29:32

[Kim Taylor]

If I was building another Wot4 electric (which I may well do at some point) I'd try to go for the lightest setup to give adequate power, so in my view I'd go for a 4250 or 4260 can size around 700 - 800kV on a 4s LiPo.

Propped right, that would give you an easy 750 - 800 watts for an all up weight of around 5.5lbs.

On my last (late) one, I used a 50?? can sized motor, around 500kV on a 6s LiPo (because I had it all 'in stock) propped down to about 750 watts. The downside was that I had to add weight to the tail end to get the c of g right and it ended up at over 6lb.

Still flew OK, but the landings could leave scorch marks on the grass if you didn't have a breeze to help!!

It fell victim to radio failure (really, it was) but I still miss it.

Obviously, your mileage may vary

Kim

edit to remove unwanted emoji

Edited By Kim Taylor on 17/06/2020 13:44:37

[Kim Taylor]

Oh and I forgot to say the Ripmax electric motor fitting kit weighs a ton - the standoffs are solid aluminium and seriously heavy, as is the aluminium motor plate.

I cut away the centre of the motor plate and replaced the standoffs for lighter studding/tube.

When I do my next one, I won't bother with the electric add on kit and I'll make my own battery tray and motor mount.

Kim

Edited By Kim Taylor on 17/06/2020 14:51:03

[Geoff S]

I fly my ARTF Mk2 Wot4 on 4S using a Foxy C4020/10 and Foxy 65 amp esc I bought from Puffin for an earlier (now decommisioned) model. I think I've got it on a 12x6 prop for about 600 watts but there's the option of upping that to 750 watts with 13x6.5 but there's adequate power for my modest skills.

I didn't buy the Ripmax electric kit and did my own thing, mainly because I suspected the official stuff wouldn't suit the motor but also because I have my own ideas about motor installation. The CoG is still a bit too far forward but not so far as to make flying or landing difficult.

Mine, at least, is an impressive package and very well made. IIRC it was £110 from Kings Lynn Models about 18 months ago.

Geoff

[Keith Miles 2]

Thanks for the contributions, guys. All very useful and I’m still head scratching!

I’m 67, you see, and apart from the Riot, all of my other electric models are small indoor types, mostly small helicopters. I then have four 4 stroke powered models plus two unboxed ARTF kits which will also be 4 stroke, plus the currently damaged Wot4.

I know what to expect of the Wot4 if I keep it simple and replace my tired Irvine 46 with an O.S. FOR £125. I already have a spare engine mount and cowl, and there would be less work involved.

I don’t know, however, what to expect from an electric set-up which would cost, initially, at least twice that, allowing for three flight batteries, for practicality, and even if I go with a “proven” or recommended power train.

So, part of me suggests that it might be an interesting experiment and part of me is suggesting that I save money and stick with what I know already!

And, for the avoidance of serious thread drift, I am well aware of the general advantages and disadvantages of IC versus EP, including comparison of short term and long term costs!

Kim,

On your point about landing, if anything, I have found the Riot a little harder to slow down than an IC Wot4 and am wondering if that’s just a feature of differing power characteristics and whether electrics tend to “windwill” as power is reduced but I’m just guessing! Lack of engine noise as a guide might have an effect, too!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 18/06/2020 11:11:22

[Kim Taylor]

Hi Keith

I have recently been flying my Riot again after a break of 6 months or more. Before lockdown, and since, I have mainly been flying a 'lectrified Seagull PC-9 which although it isn't tricky to fly, is a much higher energy experience, due to the 6.5lb weight. It can slow down nicely but if you are carrying a bit of excess speed it will still land and stay down - it isn't a floater.

Going back to the Riot has been an eye opener, as I've obviously got lazy and stopped flying the model down to the ground as it punishes any excess speed with a big bounce and a second 'landing' further down the strip. They can and will slow down to a walking pace, but you've got to time the flare just right if you're to avoid the dreaded bounce or stall in from a foot up.

For me, lack of noise is definitely an issue - I don't fly the Riot of there's an i.c. plane up, as I just can't hear it and I find that I need the extra reference of sound to help me fly accurately. The PC-9 makes enough noise to be able to hear it most of the time - one of my club mates reckons it sounds almost turbine like although I couldn't comment as my tinnitus messes up the full aural experience.

By the way, contributing to this thread is about to cost me serious money, as I've decided to build another Wot4 using the power train I've outlined above, probably.

Kim

[Keith Miles 2]

Totally concur with your landings assessment and the noise clue issue!

Your final sentence had me laughing out loud. Sorry about that! 😊

To make matters worse, I just remembered that I bought a barely used O.S. LA46 from a fellow club member two or three years ago and it’s been sitting in a plastic bag ever since! I also have a similarly acquired, unused and similarly forgotten Thunder Tigre 54 4-stroke!

Sorry, but you can see where this is now going, can’t you?

At least we would seem to agree which of the two in question is the superior aeroplane!

[Kim Taylor]

Well, not quite. Different, yes - like comparing apples with Tuesday. But that's a well worn path on this thread and another, so let's let it lie there!!

Kim

btw I'm not anti i/c - I've got a Wot4 XL fitted with a petrol motor and a Gangster 63 Lite with an ASP .61FS.

I do love to get them out when I've got time on my hands to spend at the field, just doesn't happen very often.