Formosa Rocks!

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

H'mmmm strange. Flightpower packs are normally top notch kit so I wouldn't think the battery is the problem. If it faded after 5 minutes this in theory means you are pulling over 10C or more than 15A average......this can't be the case or your motor would have melted!!!! The other possibility is that the pack wasn't fully charged....what sort of charger do you have? Some of the cheaper ones can be a bit nasty & cut off as soon as they see max voltage....this then ignores the "constant voltage" phase of the charging cycle which in my experience can be worth about 1/3 of the entire charge. (getting a bit heavy with theory here but basically to charge a LiPo efficiently there are two phases.....constant current, where the charger maintains a 1C charge current into the pack whilst the voltage rises to a max of 4.2V per cell ie 12.6V for a 3S. At this stage the charger should go into the constant voltage or float taper stage where it holds the voltage constant at 12.6V whilst slowly reducing the current...when it gets to 0.1A or so the charger switches off....no trickle charge lika a NiCd charger!!!!)

Other than that not sure what to suggest really....a faulty battery is obviously a possibility but as I say Flightpower is usually top notch.

As to more power 171Watts will definitely put a smile on its face..the thing about the Formosa though is not speed...it has a fairly thick wing section so will never be an out & out speed machine but as you have already noted it flies very precisely...great for practising yer aeros!!!

If you want more power though (& lets face it we all do!!!) I can heartily recommend the TP24-09-12T from BRC (see http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/?page=shop&item=322) This takes my (22oz)Fizza vertically upwards practically OOS on an 8x6 (Master ic prop for interest!!) so would be pretty good in a Formosa. Pulls about 17-18A on that prop which is at the limit for my battery but would be OK on yours at the expense of flight time....

As the thread sez....Formosa Rocks!!!

[Danny Fenton]

Thanks Steve, The charger is a Tenergy balanced charger from the States. it has individual voltage and current displays for each cell, and as you say the phases of constant voltage and current can be seen. I am wondering if it may be that the pack needs using a bit more. I guess it was only three quarter discharged last night and that was probably the deepest discharge yet. It has flown in a 55 watt cub once, (bet that didn't drain much power) in a small 150 watt Tucano, which glitched like crazy after a couple of minutes so I got it down. I have heard that lipos get better with use. Maybe it is still too new? That motor you mention sounds interesting

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Perhaps its a Californian charger so its a bit laid back ;-)!!!!

My Formosa glitched a bit too because (I think) everything is a bit close together.....switching to a Jeti Rex 4 MPD Rx sorted it.

Not sure about using the battery to "get it going" so to speak.....in my experience Lipos usually work pretty good out of the box unlike NiMhs but thats another story!!!

Fly it some more & see what happens....then buy the BRC motor & REALLY have some fun....vertical upward rolls look so pretty don't they....

Try a conical lomcevak too...up into a loop...over the top & then hit full down, full left rudder & full left aileron (both sticks in the top left corners if you like)...that'll test yer canopy mounting!!! Doesn't half eat up some sky though so start high & watch the big green bit at the bottom....as they say the fall doesn't hurt but the sudden stop at the bottom sure makes a mess!!!!

[Marc Humphries]

Keep the faith. My 120 W Formosa has a great vertical performance with a FlightPower 3S 1200.

Steve - nice info about the charging theory. I use a cheapo Graupner which seems to charge the batterys fine. I do realise that I need to get a balancer setup soon. Trouble is - I have four LiPo packs - all different suppliers... I guess I'll have to standardise to make sure the balancing leads fit...

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Hi Marc....yeah I know what you mean about the balancer leads....drives you daft. They are all similar but subtly different...in ways too difficult to describe over the phone!!!! I use a Hyperion LBA 10 balancer but this model is sold by different distributors who change the appearance...the Ripmax EQ5 & EQ6+ are very similar.

Check out BRC, he has lots of leads & connectors which should match....

Personally I change the plug on the LiPo to suit so all my batteries fit the one harness...carrying lots of harnesses would drive me nuts. You do need to know a bit about what you are doing before attemping this though (no offence intended...you're probably a PhD in Electronics!!!!) its not something for the novice as getting it wrong could release the magic smoke....!!!

[Myron Beaumont]

The more I read ,the more frightened I get about going electric from what I've read on all the threads & in the mag articles & I don't think I'm the only one either.
Go on! Convince me it's time I gave up my many trusty (& 2 unused)engines. Yes! i'm convinced that 2.4 is here to stay but why not leave the 'lectricity to our control systems I say .Comments very welcome .

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

I wouldn't dream of trying to convince you to go all leccy & get rid of yer ic motors. Myron. Far from it...I just love ic....it was the main reason for getting into flying in the first place back in 1904 when I woz a lad!!!

IC is my first love but leccy has its place...lunchtime flights whilst in a suit (should be working!!) Quick flit in the local park.....that playing field which would be a great flying field but for those houses.

Yes it can be complex if you start experimenting but stick with standard stuff you'll find it pretty simple...after all most of the flying "toys" aimed at kids are electric aren't they??

Final thought...think of all the options for an IC engine...different fuel, how much Nitromethane? Castor or synthetic oils...different heat ratings for the glow plug...should I use a glow panel or a glow stick...leads to connect the plug....alter the mixture....idle needle....tuned pipe....what size tank? You get the picture? As an experienced aeromodeller it just comes naturally because you understand it & know what works so you can discount 75% of the possibilities...leccy is no different....its just newer & less well understood by fewer people.

One point though....avoid the Zealots who tell you IC is dead & leccy is the way forward...quick, clean, convenient....best thing since sliced bread etc etc. Fanatics are best avoided....each to his own I say & at the end of the day its a hobby...we do it cos it facinates & amuses us....not to score points or convince someone "our" way is better than theirs

Thats wot I think anyway!!!

[Danny Fenton]

Myron, I am a lover of all things mechanical, I refuse to have a gas barbecue and enjoy creating fire LOL I love making an engine run. However I also enjoy flying my models. I have just turned to this "Magic smoke taming" and to be able to put an assembled aerobatic model (not a mini tigermoth, but a mini pattern plane) in the car with just a transmitter is really nice. Last night the rain stopped, the wind stopped and for a couple of hours before dark the weather was glorious. I jumped in the car, drove to the flying field, (open all the time to leccy flyers) walked to the pits area with just the model and transmitter, powered up and flew. I couldn't have assembled my power models in that time never mind fueled and started it. Don't get me wrong I love the atmosphere of IC but don't limit yourself to one or the other, they are different but complementary. The one thing I would say is don't dabble, but do it properly with a fairly pokey motor, decent batteries, otherwise you will be restricted to sunny flat calm flying. And lastly, don't be afraid to ask for advice :) Right that's my pitch over to you Steve and Marc.

[Danny Fenton]

Drats! you got in before me Steve LOL

[Myron Beaumont]

Thanks Steve & Danny Wot can I say?
Are you 103 Years young ? born in 1904 ? - By gum ! & I thought I was one of the original model aviators apart from our even older friend Leonardo
OK then (cough cough ) what exactly would you suggest I get( Bearing in mind I live in a motor home ) ( 12V available from a petrol engine )?

[Danny Fenton]

Well I am not sure what sort of flying you enjoy, but at £18.99 for a Formosa, £19.99 for the motor and ESC http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop&action=additem&item=80
You will also need three cheap as chips 7.5g servos, I paid £14 for four. A small receiver GWS RD8SL Dual conversion £20 (we have a glitchy field LOL) You will of course need a battery, and thats the expensive bit, something like a 3S1P ie 3 cells in series. Between 1000Mah and 1700Mah, if you are interested I get stuff from United Hobbies in Hong Kong, shipping is cheap, takes about two weeks, But and it is a big but they are cheap! £12 https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2095 some friends have used these cells and they are fine. You will also need a cheap balanced LiPo charger. Marc has this same BRC setup and I am sure he will tell you the prop he uses on his as the prop size and type is critical get it wrong, and you produce the magic smoke. A wattmeter will tell you whats going on BEFORE the whisps appear, they are about £25 but can be acquired later. The motor setup outlined by Marc is good for a model up to 500g Which could be a forty inch cub or a 30 inch Tucano or as we have a 38 inch foam formosa.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Can't really add much to what Danny has said....you wouldn't go wrong with a Formosa....get Dannys 120W set up & it'll go just fine & if you like it you can up the power (& like it even more!!!!). Setting up is pretty expensive with chargers & the like. I would suggest you give the guys at BRC a call & have a chat with them so they can guide you & tell you the options.....

Where abouts in the country are you Myron....Tony Hill at All Electric (Stoke)is a good guy for advise too.....you can't beat actually talking to someone about E flight rather than sit typing away on a forum deep into the night...LOL!!!!

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Danny how have you found the whole ordering from HK business?? I've heard horror stories of things not turning up & customs adding their markup as import duty & VAT (which doubles the price)....the prices on the website look very keen & although you will have to add postage it still looks pretty good.....

Recommended.....??

[Danny Fenton]

I have some friends that use United all the time and they have had no problems, much of the stuff is unbranded, but it is so cheap you can try things. The postage is not very high at all and works on a weight system. Every item displays its weight in grams and you keep ordering up to a level, go over and you move up to the next level. It is not unusual to add a couple of servo extension cables because they only weigh a couple of grams to make up the weight, and not waste shipping.
I flew the Formosa again last night, in formation (I use that term loosely I hasten to add, my flying is not that good) and Chris's Formosa was double the speed of mine. His setup is rated at 171 watts but with battery drop off he is getting about a sustained 147 Watts. I have run some tests on my battery and it is a FlightPower Evo 20, rated at 25C it even says on the pack 37.5 continuous, 60 amp burst. I loaded it to 30 amps and it dropped to 9 volts in about 30 secs. The max current it would hold at 9.5 volts was 9.5 amps. Now that goes against my understanding of C rating! so even though the cells all appear to balance okay the C rating is miles off! This is why the batteries are warm after a 5 - 10 minute 120 watt flight. Not right, I will order some cheap LiPos from HK @ £12 rather than think I am being wise and ordering name brand from the UK @ £40.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Might be an idea to take it up with Flightpower...as I say their batteries are usually top notch. Could you fit yer mates battery in your Formosa & see how it goes???

My only worry ordering from HK is that our customs may decide to take an interest.....I occasionally get stuff from our US factory for work purposes & Customs slap VAT, Import duty AND charge me £11 for the privilige!!! Typical bill would be about £24....

The way around it is for my US colleagues to put Samples No Commercial Value on the packaging...I don't get charged then!! It just seems that if Customs do the same with a £12 battery its gonna be well expensive!!!

[Danny Fenton]

Hi Steve, its not unflyable but a nuisance as I may have wanted to put a bigger motor in the Foamosa. As for Customs I will let you know when my order arrives, but my friends haven't been hit for any, they seem to label the item toys. I will indeed give my mates cell a go and see what happens. I would not expect the battery to get warm at all.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Its disappointing though.....you've paid top dollar for a battery & you are only getting low performance....if I were you I'd send it back to Flightpower & ask them to investigate. Watch how low you push the voltage too.....much below 9v & you're in the danger zone. Below about 2.8V per cell & yer battery becomes a paperweight...the problem can be that although its showing 9v one (weaker) cell might drop below the magic figure & the battery is toast.

I'd be surprised if the battery got seriously warm...I have the same motor on a GWS 7x6 in a small 3D type plane (a Mini-Toc from Fellside Precision Cutting if yer interested) & that draws about 13A max from a 1320mah LiPo. Full power is rarely used though & I get around 10-11 minutes general flying so thats an average of just under 8A or about 6C. The battery is a cheap one & only rated at 10-12C & it comes out slightly warm. Anything more than pleasantly warm & you're pushing the battery too hard which will seriously reduce its life.....

Let me know how you get on with HK....a 2100mah battery for £15 sounds good to me!!!

[Danny Fenton]

The battery seems to be improving LOL I still don't think I could pull much current from it, certainly not the 30 od amps, but the Formosa is flying for a good 10 minutes now with much of it full chat, it will do rolls in the vertical now so something has got better. The motor is not hot nor is the ESC, the batterries are warm but not hot.
I think my spirited Formosa flying has fired up a few others to join in, yesterday we had two Formosa and the Ripmax version (Alliance) we had a dogfight and it was brilliant fun, I did eventually mange to collide with one of the other models, however mine ended up with the scars. No reall damage more like a scar. Two more members have them on back order, we seem to have started something lol, most of the model shops have sold out!
£18.99 you can't beat it :)

[Marc Humphries]

Another convert! Keep the faith!

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Excellent....sounds like the battery is improving....10 minites is a pretty good flight...its about all my limited attention span can cope with anyhow. One "trick" for increasing duration is to learn to use the throttle....we ic guys tend to fly flat out a lot of the time but if you keep max throttle for the vertical bits & throttle back for the stooging around you'll get a good bit more duration. Another thing (nearly said "advantage" there....ooops!!!) with electric is instant throttle response...no coughing from a slightly over-rich mixture.....

Danny...maybe you should order another Formosa so you have a reserve in this one goes in!!!!!

[Danny Fenton]

Hi Steve, you are so right I am working very hard on using only as much throttle as is needed, it isn't as easy as it sounds but I am getting there LOL The Formosa "gang that is forming now numbers 5 and we have all ordered the same 200 watt motors to up the anty a bit LOL. The batts arrived from HK, and the 1000, 1300, and 1700 are giving cracking performance well above the one FP I have. so as you say for between £12 and £20 a bargain. As a bonus they are smaller and lighter too!

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

No problems with Customs then.....??? Think I might need to indulge in a new battery or two then.....!!

Is this the 200 Watt Tower Pro motor from BRC?? Should be awesome....check out the motor mount page too he has one that should be perfect for the Formosa.....
see http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/?page=shop&action=additem&item=9

[Danny Fenton]

That mount looks just the ticket, I made my own from ply, but that one looks a bit more adjustable for and aft, thanks for that. No not the 200 watt you are thinking of, https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2105 under a tenner LOL

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

H'mmmm looking at the spec I think quoting it at 200 watts is slightly optomistic....given they say 16A max continuous current that works out at nearer 160 watts...if you went for a 9x6 or 10x5 you'd need to keep the throttle under control or it would be magic smoke time again!!!!!

Still 160 watts for under a tenner is good & will give yer Formosa something to think about...the relatively low kv value will suit it too....a big prop gives lots of wash which is good for yer aeros....the BRC unit http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/?page=shop&item=322 is much higher reving (1500 kv) which suits faster models & as we said the Formosa isn't about speed!!!

Check out the Nigel Hawes Fizza too....it's simple to build looks good & has been described as a "balsa Formosa". With its 1/4" all sheet wing being nice & thin it can get a move on when you stick 150 watts up its chuff so it suits the higher reving motors....RCM&E May 2005 had the free plan but I can copy mine if the've sold out & you'd like one.... (http://www.fizza.co.uk/ Nige isn't producing kits anymore so a plan is what you need...Vortex Vacforms do the canopies!!!

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Or buy the same motor from United instead of BRC!!!

https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4899