Futaba

[260 Flyer]

Back on topic and to rub salt into the wounds of us Futa-bah owners, BRC are now selling AR6000 and AR6100e Rx's for £39.99 or half the price I would currently have to pay for an equivilent Rx!

Bah! indeed!!

[Richard Duvall]

What we need is some enterprising person who is good with electronics to come up with a simple adaptor which would have two parts. One connects to the expensive Futaba receiver and the other ( multiple copies) installed in each model. You then simply unplug the receiver from one model and plug it into another. After all, we can only fly one at a time!  If you've got half a dozen models, thats £480 saved; enough to get another model or two!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

When I was model flying the first time round in the 70s, unless you were as rich as Croesus,  you only had 1 receiver AND 1 set of servos and swapped the whole lot between models!

 

Mind you, as there were no computer radios, servo reversing or digital trims there weren't many complications involved other than hitting the right splines...

 

...and while I'm in transition between 35 MHz and 2.4 GHz I'm reviving the art to a certain extent.  The only real complication with the Jeti and a computer radio when the servos remain in the model is resetting the fail safe settings (just the throttle in most cases).

[Garry Pollard]

Beat me to it Martin, my coment was the same as yours, but what a rave up we had swapping gear over but that was the way of things as the radios were so expensive, and this was 27 meg AM

Garry

[Delta Whiskey]

Not quite half the price......but cheapest I,ve found so far is at

Fast Lads
607 £67.53
617 £70.99

[andy watson]

Why does the smallest BMW cost more than the largest Kia?  The BMW uses less metal.  Because you have to pay for quality, and just as with BMW/Kia, the cheaper option compromises quality to a greater ot lesser degree.  No one complains about Futaba quality- unlike other systems.  Why should you be able to buy a Futaba receiver for the same price as a corona?

 

I would expect every one to say safety is/should be someones main priority in this hobby, but then are prepared to choose less secure radio systems in order to save a few quid.  If you are tight on money why not buy just 1 receiver and move it between planes? 

 

 

[260 Flyer]

Andy

I don't think anyone has suggested that you should be able to buy a Futaba Rx for the price of a Corona.  But as the FASST system is much simpler than DSM why are Futaba nearly twice the price of a comparable Spektrum RX?

 

Rob

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

We seem to be getting into the "law of diminishing returns".  At some point, acceptable quality/cost curves meet.  Beyond this point you increasingly start paying for kudos per pound instead of performance.

 

This appears to be what's happening to Futaba kit in the UK.  Perhaps it's still the effect of the Yen being so much stronger a while back but unless people see the benefit of paying a considerable premium for the undoubted quality and performance of Futaba gear, they are likely, like me, to seek an acceptable substitute. As I've said in a previous post, I was strongly considering investing in a Field Force 10 but I for one have committed to Jeti for the foreseeable future - so far a transmitter module and 3 receivers with plenty more to come.

 

In your analogy, Andy, I feel I've bought myself a top of the range Vauxhall (with some very useful extras even the Beemer hasn't got) instead of a BMW.  I wouldn't want to entrust my family to a cut price Indian economy car, though.

 

With 2.4 GHz technology, the manufacturers/distributors seem to be missing a trick, with the noticeable exception of one major player, by poor marketing.  It seems to me very similar to the old Betamax/VHS situation (for those who remember the late 70s) where a superior system priced itself out of the market and failed to press home its technical advantages with short sighted licensing policies. 

 

Despite having, arguably, an inferior system, continuing issues with compliance and early performance problems, a major competitor has made their receiver purchases very attractive with special offers, imaginative advertising and reasonable prices and have linked up (literally) with other manufacturers in offering ready to use models for existing transmitter users - very cunning!

Edited By Martin Harris on 08/06/2009 23:04:41

[Erfolg]

Andy

 

The comparrison with cars, would have been good, if it were near the mark.

 

Futaba, are not the equivalnt of BMW. Yes BMW use well proven principals, but do add inovation, ranging from direct coil ignition, high pressure diesels, the application of computer technology.

 

Futaba, are solid manufactures, in the mould of  the Ford Motor Company. Yet they think they can charge Roll Royce prices (or should that be BMW luxury), or Lambogini.

 

BMW took a stock block, turbo charged it and made Mcclaren world champions, Futaba would be the equivalent of Honda, only able to produce a world beating engine, if the rest were concentrating on a normally aspirated formula 1 engine, due to rule changes. In short, they are state of the art, not cutting edge, safe, but not exceptional. Boringly dependable (but I liked that).

 

Futaba are charging to much, could become another Leyland/Rover. They are to expensive in a compative (at the moment) market, particularly when there competitors are either out inovating them or pricing there goods far more competively.

 

Like Rover, Futaba are on the path to oblivion. I have Futaba (35 &2.4) so am saddened, but I am now planning to switch, when it becomes clearer who will out stay the present stage of the race. I certainly will not be buying any more Futaba.

 

Erfolg

[Garry Pollard]

Like many other people I remember when Great Briain was on the top with motor cycles and the then management laughed at these silly Japan motor cycle makers trying to get in our market. Keep the price up was the cry. Need I say more? this is what futaba are doing and they are doomed. A few weeks ago I bought a TV and I was faced with the option of £599 against £799. The sets were identical just a different name. I asked if I was paying £200 for the branded name and was told "Yes". Guess which one I bought

Thank goodness I went the Spekey route

Garry

[IanN]

As a Futaba owner I fully agree that Futaba rx prices are shocking.

I'm just sitting here waiting for everyone who's threatening to sell their Futaba gear to actually do it. I'd like to pick some up.  Can't say I've seen much - or any - evidence of that actually happening, to date.

[260 Flyer]

ian

I have three Rx's for sale £100 each or £350 for three! (I'm good at this marketing lark!)

[260 Flyer]

Back to the Car anology, I remember back in the eighties when people were waking up to Ripoff Britain, certain Japaneese car importers started to reduce the price of their cars but were ordered to charge the list price by the manufacturers as it was bad for their brand image.

Maybe this is what we are seeing here, perhaps Ripmax have their hands tied by Futaba. If Futaba want to go head to head with JR why don't they drop the entry level systems as JR have done?

[Erfolg]

I do not expect that many will sell their Futaba 2.4. What will tend to happen, is that either replacement modules will be purchased or, as I will do, for a little more money buy a Specky.

 

That is what happened when i changed from Sanwa to Futaba (35) and of course with my Waltron 27. Yes i have a lot of sets lying about.

 

The problem for Futaba is, when your brand has been devalued in some way, it is very difficult to recover. At worst it is a lingering death as BMC to Rover, which in the early 70s had 55% of the UK market. Or you are taken over.

 

The truth is the market place is always competative, rest on your laurals as Xerox did, then when the competions arrives and life becomes very hard, you may be blown away. Or with mature products, ie Kellogs, spend a lot to maintain market share, yet see your dominant position slip away, and they have tried very hard to justify the added value (or is that price).

 

Ripmax needs to get its finger out, for there own sake.

 

Erfolg

[andy watson]

Erfolg, thannkyou for taking my car analogy further.

 

I agree with you 100%.  If you want to describe Futaba as Honda rather than BMW then I can live with that, especially when you further go on to describe them as safe and boringly dependable- the 2 features I want most from my receivers.

 

Whilst all these people are describing a long slow death of Futaba, or a mass walk away, please bear in mind there are many companies that continue to have a long and successful history competing against cheaper competitors by maintaining good, solid, quality products.

 

The natural end point of this "discussion" is obvious- if you want to pay for a rock solid Futaba receiver, then buy one.  If you don't, buy something else.

 

Simples.

[Delta Whiskey]

I don't see what the big fuss is about:

Futaba R607FS 2.4GHz Receiver 7 Channel £67.53
R617FS 7ch Rx 2.4GHz FASST  £70.99

AR7000 7Ch Receiver 2.4 gHz New Version Flight Log Compatible £59.99

 

(Prices from Fast Lads)

 

I'll happily pay £8 - £11 more for a solid reliable fubbie !   

Edited By Delta Whiskey on 10/06/2009 08:38:49

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

DW - Not sure what point you're trying to make.  The RRP of these items is what is at issue and there will always be examples of discounted prices where retailers have a stock to sell and make a decision to cut margins for various reasons.

 

The RRP of an AR7000 appears to be £64.99 and a 617FS is £79.99  Ripmax aren't listing the 607FS.  My personal opinion is that the Futaba system is technically superior but that Spektrum and others such as Jeti and Multiplex have a growing reputation. Certainly from observation in my club and others I'm familiar with, people have voted with their feet and are abandoning Futaba in droves - up until now mainly to Spektrum but a lot of interest is being shown in Jeti.

 

With the non-interchangeability of receivers - unlike 35 MHz PPM - a major factor of choice of system these days when it isn't unusual for modellers have 10 models or more, equipped wth individual receivers.  In addition, Spektrum sell receivers in the sub £40 range which will appeal to a lot of sport modellers.

 

If volumes drop off too much, will this lead to further price increases to cover development costs - or will Futaba (who do not depend on RC sales by any means) continue development and production in the long run?

[Delta Whiskey]

Thanks Martin.
Ok what I am saying is that it's not that a lot of a difference in price! Ok on the RRP even, I still be happy to pay an extra £14 - £15 for what I think too, (reading on how the transmission works) a better system!

 

And yes a lot at my club are using Spektrum too, I guess it all started in my opinion when manufactures of the Blade 400 Heli, and I can think of one fixed wing in my LHS the Trojan T28 (I think) are offerred with the Spektrum thus setting the owner up with Spektrum for the rest of their RC lives !

 

I choose the Futaba route, because at the time, about 18 months ago, I got a 2.4 6EX + RX & four recievers brand new all at £119 !

[260 Flyer]

My problem is when I went over to 2.4GHz the 6ch Futaba was similar in price to the Spektrum, both for the outfit  and for the Rx's, which was a factor in my choice.

Shortly after I bought my  6EX Futaba announced that the £45 RF606 Rx had been discontinued and I would have to buy the then £60 RF617 7 channel  receiver, which now costs £70 to £80. The comparable (for 6 channel users) Spektrum is still under £40. 

[Pete D]

I wonder if Futaba or ripmax directors are vaware of this thread?   

I would like to see some responces from them, to at least justify their pricing policy against as their US prices.  Perhaps the mag. could draw it to their attention or would that risk loss of much needed advertising revanue?

 

I would hate to see Futaba go the way of British Leyland or Burroughs computers.

 

COME ON RESPOND.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I don't really want to get into an X is better than Y debate but I do wonder what may happen if the 2.4GHz spectrum gets more crowded as new applications come on line.  I understand that Spektrum can pick 2 close or adjacent channels which might leave the link vulnerable to being swamped by a rogue transmitter.

 

The worry is that the arguably better FHSS system will price itself out of the market and it is people concerned for the future of Futaba who are querying the pricing policy of the manufacturer/importer. You are certainly correct about the clever marketing employed by Spektrum and this is another area where I think Futaba need to wake up fast! (or should that be FASST?)

Edited By Martin Harris on 10/06/2009 13:16:26

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Maybe RCM&E could approach Ripmax for comments on the situation?

[David Ashby - Moderator]

 

 

No company is duty bound to justify its pricing policy. Ripmax have no obligation to join the debate and you as a consumer can express your preference accordingly if you don't like the price/value. If you don't like the price of a pair of trousers in M&S then you wouldn't expect a cost break down in justification from the store manager.  

 

We're not worried about ad' revenue affecting the integrity of the magazine but to be honest we're not going to jump around challenging UK distributors with their product pricing policies simply because we're not in the business of telling others how to run theirs.  They're all big boys and girls with decades of experience in the UK hobby industry.

 

Having read this thread through what strikes me is the horrible absence of facts on which some are basing their theories. market share, market/pricing strategy, exchange-rate management, profit margins, overall profit levels of the respective companies - these figures are all missing and may all have a bearing on the price you see in the high street. Whether as consumers folks feel the price/value is right is just down to the individual. Clearly though one doesn't have to be a scientist to see that in some areas R/C flying isn't cheap at the moment and, even if you think it excessive, Futaba pricing is hardly an isolated case.

 

 

    

 

Edited By David Ashby - RCME moderator on 10/06/2009 15:20:39

[andy watson]

save money on radio gear

 

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

David,

 

I think that what posters are trying to point out is that their system of choice is becoming increasingly non-viable financially and they would like to think that Ripmax, as the manufacturer's representative, could be given the opportunity to reassure their end customers that they were likely to be getting a decent deal.  I don't think anyone wanted you to ask them to detail their commercial policies but just to make them aware of the ground swell of opinion.

 

As a consumer, I can only record my own feelings about the way products being marketed come over.  My plans to buy an FF10 and Futaba receivers have been scuppered by the price increases and the perception that the Czech module system that I bought offered excellent quality and facilities. That, as a certain football manager stated recently, is a fact.  Many of my clubmates have moved from Futaba to Spektrum.  That is also a fact.  It's also a fact that I declined to buy the exact same equipment from Ripmax via my local model shop due to an extraordinary price difference.