Lets buy British!

[ken anderson.]

BEB---you put that over well..you will get my vote this time round......to many variable's to argue the in's and out's of it all......other than the 'boat' we are in now was launched by us all....so really no good trying to aportion the blame on somebody else.....we're all responsible..........anyway back to flying......

 

 ken anderson ne..1..his five penneth.. 

[Allan Bowker]

There is still some hope for the UK, don't forget the all British TARANIS that was unveiled this week.

 

[Snorbitz]

The kiwi's actually actively promote themselves on the radio over there. On a recent trip i heard them say one of the main radio sations "Buy from another Aucklander caus ya never know when they'll need to buy from you".or words to that effect. 

Now initially i thought thats a bit off but when i though about it longer i thought they're absolutely spot on...why not self promote...we do very well a knocking ourselves down here...some shameless self promotion wouldn't go a miss sometimes. Just a pity the products aren't always up to it as mentioned in earlier posts.

[kc]

I don't think we can let a Kiwi get away with saying Triumph and Morris went broke!  It is surely not correct,  they were absorbed into BMC / Leyland. 

It was Rover that disappeared years later after the Germans had picked out the parts they wanted and left the rest to wither.

Edited By kc on 14/07/2010 11:13:31

[Erfolg]

The past has provided the UK with many household names. Of particular interest to us are modelling products, which are a sub set of the economy as a whole.

 

The brand names and businesses were and are not big businesses. The Mercury Kits, KK, Veron, Allen Mercury, ED, ETA, Waltron Flight Link, Swan, Fleet, McGregor,Stavely, an almost never ending list. Historically companies do seem to have a life of about 50 years or less, although there are exceptions. Those with a life beyond the 50 years are never the same business that started, having morphed to meet the challenges of the day.

 

I would anticipate that most UK residents want the UK to do better as a manufacturer. To do better I think we need to understand the obstacles and the opportunities to industry. Some need government help, rates, business taxes, Employment taxes (NI etc). Which often directly influences the manufacturing costs.

 

The aspect where we all can equate to is the "Perceived Quality". Those products, that were much loved by us older modellers, by and large did not move with the market, in many respects. I have mentioned previously the packaging of kits etc. Who truefully is not influenced in some ways by what we see. In most instances the UK packaging did not keep pace with a changing market. Then we are to the contents, probably the important bit, although our expectations have almost certainly been influenced, by that packaging. Be it an engine or balsa, it needs to look right. That can mean the finish, the physical form, the use of colour, in the case of an engine the detail components. In the case of kits the bundling of parts, preformed and cut components etc, quality of materials. The final element can be the instruction/sheet/book, how usable, and quality of production.

 

All the above need "continuous improvement", what was good enough to day is not necessarily good enough tomorrows. As was noted by a long dead Greek philosopher we should not confuse change with progress. Yet to stay vibrant it is necessary to change with time, to progress.

 

Not withstanding the arguments of greedy management, most UK modelling organisations were and are small businesses. Yet I believe it was evident that it was this area of improvement  that we UKers were poor at. A once significant sector, exporting to the world, now small companies operating in niche areas

 

I know that all modelling materials are more expensive in the UK than the USA. I think in part this is due to internal costs and competition within a numerically bigger market. I understand that UK prices are broadly similar to the rest of the EU.

 

There is evidence of entrepreneurs in the UK, such as Broddick, Branson, Dyson, Sugar. The main issue is that in the long term the UK is not seen as the optimal location for manufacture for many products. I think there will be many more in the future. Government and society needs to provide the environment to help them achieve there goals. Again from history, it is individuals which made our brand names of old work, not government.

 

Above all future generations must be provide with the incentives to try, to hopefully succeed. Mostly it is an interest in what they are doing and the ability to make a profit (yes, that dirty word for some) which provides the incentive for them to succeed and by association the UK. 

 

There is a future for the UK, particularly if we recognise the world does not owe us a living, and we learn from mistakes, and it is us that provides prosperity, not goverment (they only spend it).

 

The strange aspect of this discussion we all want the UK to do and be better.

[David perry 1]

Oh, I think "broke" is a good term...

 

 Despite containing profitable marques such as Jaguar, Rover and Land Rover, as well as the best-selling Mini, British Leyland had a troubled history.^[4] In 1986 it was renamed as the Rover Group, later to become MG Rover Group, which went into administration in 2005,

 

We are a greedy lot, the workers always want to earn more than they are worth, the managers ditto and want to pay LESS than they are worth. We seem to have little dignity of labour , I heard a minister on the old motor car wireless theother day say (words to effect of ), "it must be awful to wake up and think of the tatty job you are going to".

 

Until we have dignity of labour and a cessation of government inspired greed, we will not amount to much more than we currently have.   I feel this is v sad!

 

How can China make model planes for tuppence ha'penny? Because the factory workers doing the making don't expect to earn the same as a doctor doing heart surgery!  In the UK they do.

 

I agree with our products also being "ordinary". We somehow seem to sneer at the flashy boxes and glossy pictures of American offerings, regarding them as  a bit "infra dig". Trouble is, thats the bench mark now.  It seems we have a gap between what we think is "right" and what we actually like.

 

 I look with dismay at some of the products available (and I don't know them all so will be easily flamed for this I am sure) but look at them: we have the Greenair planes, some decent foamies, the Wild Thing, Foss kits etc etc, all good but "rough" when compared with, say, Alfa, Hangar 9 , Starmax, Graupner,etc etc. All really nicely presented and nicely finished.

 

I dont think it will ever change either.  So, I try to buy british made but I don't do so at the expense of my own value for money or fitness for purpose.  Getting those right is the task of the maker, not the buyer. 

 

D 

[andy watson]

The original point of this thread, which is fast becoming buried, was to support the small businesses that do provide exceptionally good products.  Which car manufacturer did what when is completely irrelevant.  At no point did I, or would I, suggest compromising on quality and ending up with an inferior product.

 

The classic case is perhaps Robart retracts/oleos when we have a company like unitracts that work in the same area, provide exceptional quality and are British.  No compromise on quality, no need to make do, but how many people have heard of them?  At least lets make sure people know whats out there.

 

 

[Ultymate]

Much as it pains me if you're going to restrict yourself to buying British your going to have a pretty dull hobby and lifestyle

[andy watson]

*sigh*

 

I don't believe I ever said that either.  I believe I said that where an equivalent product exists then we should make sure people know of and hopefully choose the British version.

 

Apparantly that is a controversial statement, as people have spent 2 pages explaining why it can't/shouldn't be done.  And then probably go to the pub to complain about our industry being dominated by financial services.

[kc]

The prices of ARTF are so low, despite the amount of work required to make a model, that we of all people know that the workers can be paid only a pittance.  As it has already been proved that some of the cheap clothing and produce on sale in Britain has been made using child labour it is pretty obvious that this is likely to be so in ARTF production.  If the ARTF were made in decent factories by well paid workers then surely the RC magazines would have shown some photos of the work by now..  The lack of such photos or details of how & where these cheap ARTF are made is surely the ‘smoking gun’.

The only way we can now have a viable manufacturing industry is by high import duties on manufactured goods.  If we don’t get high import duties then our standard of living will deteriorate to that of the countries that now produce the goods we buy.  It is now obvious to everyone that it was naive to think that Banking etc would forever make up the difference between our imports and exports.  Either we get import tariffs to support our remaining industry or we become a ‘Third World’ country.  The choice is ours….at the moment.

[Ultymate]

You don't succeed by putting up crazy import barriers you sell your labour at realistic prices that's why there's no production in the UK because we don't have a large pool of cheap labour Yet but we may have soon

[Reno Racer]

Just placed a rather expensive order with unitracts for retracts and Oleos from my Brian Taylor 68" BF109E, which I have yet to source all the parts for. the other shop (traplet) is about to get an order for the laser parts, G/F mouldings and canopy etc. 

Now about to depart to the US for a few years, it has become really apparent that most of the quality traditional build stuff is made in the UK - long may this continue!!

I use HK alot (and GC in the UK), it would be good to see more UK companies supplying/manufacturing British products. I'm not talking cheap foamy stuff, but the high quality engineering stuff that we Brits used to have a reputation for making (ignore BL and the entire 1970s!!!). Long may companies like unitracts continue to flourish, so many these days seem to have fallen fowl to cheaper Chinese imports and the recession. 

[Erfolg]

Assuming that the UK goods are broadly equivalent of their competitors. The issue then becomes of effective promotion and availability at the point of sale. It is not the purchasers duty to research the options though, the wise will. It is the manufacturers self interest to help that person with brass in pocket to make the right decision.

 

Regarding wage rates and child labour. There will always be some areas where lower labour costs are available. It was ever so, at least from the mid 1800s, when the European economies started to rise to challenge the UKs. It is the norm.

 

With child labour, as a moral issue, it is multifaceted and dependant on perspective. The UK has had a much to be proud of in its opposition to slavery in the 1800s and still endeavours to improve the lot of humanity in conjunction with many other European nations. For most of us it is unacceptable, to have children working full days in factories, as many did in our own cotton mills. Yet we accept children undertaking paper rounds, working in shops at week ends (as both my daughters did), or assisting parents who work from home, be it assembling spray canisters or working on their parents farms, in the UK. On this basis i have little issue with children assisting hard pressed parents in the Far East. It is a question of for how long, does it damage health, prevent schooling and education. Do I think it is ideal, NO. I started work at 15, both worked and studied up to degree standard, as has my wife. In my mind children are certainly a lot younger than 15. Ideally I do not wish them to work

 

I do not buy ARTFs, the only two I have made/assembled were foamies, I doubt that these provided any work for children. In some respects rather than being a paragon of virtue, buy not purchasing an ARTF, I have not provided any consequential, unintended benefit, to those who benefit, how ever little, from this work. I would guess if better ways of earning money were available, they would preferentially take it up. I am not convinced by not buying ARTF models that I am behaving any or much better, than those with a squadron of models.

 

In general i do not believe that protectionism works to any ones interest, although the the "land of free-trade" has recently been very protectionist, ie Bulk steel Product, aircraft etc.

 

It is time for the pub. What is on the agenda, ahh yes, why is  the  Goverment charging the Banks so much in interests on loans, is 12%, acceptable when bank rate is 0.5%? Hmmm, a lively debate I think 

[kc]

Ultymate if you want to work at the worlds lowest wage the rest of us don't!    It sounds like you are one of those with a well paid job who thinks he is immune from reality. The reality is that your days hard work is not worth any more than any other intelligent persons hard work!  You cannot expect other people to work for you at  a lower wage than you get!

 

The Japanese improved their economy by protecting against imports......a lot of their protection was unseen and secret.  The rest of Asia took note and copied them.  We should too.

Edited By kc on 14/07/2010 18:55:45

[Ultymate]

KC don't make assumptions about people of whom you know absolutely sod all I am not and never have been in a high paid job, I'm actually retired not in receipt of any benefit, living on my wits and savings and having a ball 

[Myron Beaumont]

Ultimate

I'm very tempted to print out my CV's --Yes ,I had two that I used ! One for engineering pursuits,the other for the entertainment industry .I'm like you, I receive no benefits & live on my wits  .I don't think I have ever earnt more than about £10,000 pa in my life .

(come to think of it ,I've lost more than that per annum to certain females  

Maybe I should consider assembling a harem of Chinese ladies ? They could do a lot of modelling for me

Sorry but just slightly going off thread 'cos others were

Myron

Edited By Myron Beaumont on 14/07/2010 19:51:29

[kiwi g]

Talking of wages for people and how they like to live.

We all like the standard of living where we can have the best of everything. education helps in most cases get great jobs , then again it fails when a person studies for years and then cannot get a job and has to suffer for a lesser quality of life because it wasnt what his studies expected of him.

Theres only one way to get ahead and its to get busy. help yourself, dont worry about what joe bloggs next door has or is doing.  if you want to start a bussiness selling local goods or trades and you think you can do it , have a go.

 

Remember this ...   At the end of the day the race is only with yourself.     if you win or lose it wont matter ,you will gain more by trying.

 

off topic I know but then again it is about supporting local business.

 

Maybe we need to revive the cafe for awhile.

Cheers kiwi g

[Erfolg]

I suspect that there are two principal means of selling modelling goods.The first is the model shop in the high street. The second is the Internet.

 

The majority of  high street model shops will purchase via distributors, such as , Ripmax, Perkins, McGregor. Many of these UK distributors will be acting as outlets to the likes of Graupner, Helger, Weston UK. Who have there own lines of products sourced world wide.

 

The second the inter net, will be principally supplied via, modelling agents, typically located in the Far East.

 

I suspect the principle reason that UK modelling products are not sold in greater volumes is that they are not effectively getting into either of these two means of distribution.

 

Business being business, there is little room for sentiment, if the price, and viable volumes of product are available, they become interested. That is as long as the product is seen to be the real dealto the buying public.  Additional commitment for product supply may be required.

 

Other than penetrating these supply chains effectively, many good products will most probably remain in a niche area.

 

Of course it can be done, anybody in the UK attempting to become a player will have my support. But competition is strong, with an unsentimental (today) UK buying public.