Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 I am after some help.>> >> I flew my model for the first time yesterday with an instructor at my local club. All was going well, then I seemed to momentarily lose aileron control input, but by the time I had thought about it all was well again. I did let the instructor know, but put it down to my nervousness. However, a short while later the aircraft pitched down in the turn, but up elevator had no effect. I rolled out the turn, but the aircraft continued in a dive that I could not arrest .The instructor quickly took control but to no avail, and the aircraft continued in a steep dive. The model is Cat 5, so I collected the bits and set off home. The instructor wanted to know about the elevator linkages, which were all still connected.>> >> I have tried to diagnose the problem today. The linkages to all controls are all still intact. I have now removed the radio equipment from the wreck and it works as advertised. I have checked the voltages; the voltage on the receiver was near enough 6 volts about 2 hours after the crash (when I thought to check it) and the transmitter was 5.4v. After removing the control runs I have found the metal pushrods (housed in a plastic sleeve pre installed in the ARTF Seagull Boomerang) to be quite rusty, but nothing else seems untoward. >> >> This is all a bit of background info and I am after some help and advice. Can anybody advise what might have caused the loss of elevator control? I have salvaged the engine (which with a new needle valve is working fine) and the radio equipment (a Spectrum Dx6i (2.4GHZ) with receiver and 4 servos (Zebra ZS-S2113) All this is as supplied by the model shop in a 'package deal'. For info, the servo instructions (on the box) state that they have a torque rating of 3.2kg-cm (44.43 oz-in) at 6.0 v and 2.6 kg-cm (36.10 oz-in) at 4.8 v>> >> I have to confess I had taken little care to check the aerial runs on the installation as the aerials are only about 1 inch long on the main and remote receiver. Could these have been close to each other and interfered? The manual states that the remote antennas should be at least 2 inches away form the primary antenna, but I am not sure if that is critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Advert Steve Fish Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 You have not stated if you were using a buddy lead? If so was it loose or perhaps there was intermittent engagement of the trainer switch? Just a thought.Binding of the push rods is not the answer as they would not have interfered with the ailerons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 what radio system are you using Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Frank Skilbeck Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Tim, had you rebound the Tx to Rx after you's set the plane up, this would have set the throttle failsafe (throttle to idle), when the elvator control froze did the engine throttle back, if thats the case then it was possibly a loss of signal, which would indicate a Transmitter intermittent fault. If it was only the elevator that didn't respond then this would indicate a problem with the elevator servo or linkage. If the throttle didn't go to failsafe (i.e. go to idle, assuming it had been setup this way) and none of the other controls were responding this would suggest i) No power to Rx, e.g. faulty switch, battery, battery lead etc.ii) Rx failure Re the aerials, it's a good idea to spread them apart but more importantly they should be at 90 deg to each other. If this was the case though then the symptons would be same as loss of signal. Lastly were you on a buddy box, if so it might be worth checking the lead, I've never buddies my Dx6i but the club uses Futaba's with buddy leads on its trainers and we have had some problems with buddy leads causing problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 If you were on a buddy Recently at our club a loose buddy lead meant the model was not being controlled by either Tx.Fortunately the model was happily flying away by itself ,the instructor pulled the lead out and control was back.Trouble is it all happens so fast.Dont fret Tim a guy at our club,very experienced,lots of lessons a professional school totalled three superb models yesterday,the problem,HIMEdited By Stephen Grigg on 11/04/2010 22:36:24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Mackey Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Aerial placement is important on 2.4Ghz stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 Thanks Guys, We were not on a buddy box, simply passing the transmitter. It is a Spectrumm Dx6i with a Spectrum AR6200 receievr. I had bundled the arials in the protective wrapping I had put around the receivers, so they were 'wrapped around' the main and remote receiver, whch we placed about 3 inches apart in the model. Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 Frank, Sorry I missed your question. The throtte to idle failsafe is not set up. Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 The problem may have been the aerial positioning,did you do a range check?Also what position did you have your Tx aerial,Edited By Stephen Grigg on 11/04/2010 23:34:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... andy watson Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Transmitter voltage 5.4V? Is that normal on a Spektrum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Regards to throttle safe position,if you bound your Rx with the throttle closed it automatically sets that as the safe position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 I think the throttle safe was disabled as its something to do with the timer on the DX6i, but I will check. Sadly, I never did do a range check - I will now though, and experiment at range with aeial positioning!! PS, Just looked at your album Stephen, and my Boomerang and yours are very simiar!! What caused that? Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Hamish Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Andy The Dx6i can be 4 X AA = 6 volts batteries or 4 X NiCd or NiMH = 4.8 volts. So 5.4 volts is no problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... John Privett Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Posted by Tim Cheal on 11/04/2010 23:23:26:I had bundled the arials in the protective wrapping I had put around the receivers, so they were 'wrapped around' the main and remote receiver, whch we placed about 3 inches apart in the model. That - to me at least - is a possible cause... The aerials should run straight outwards from the receivers, and the satelite rx aerials should ideally be at 90 degrees to the main rx aerials. Wrapping the aerials round the rxs increases the risk of the rx itself blocking the signal to the aerial. Look at the Spektrum manual page 16 for rx installation details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Hi Tim my Boomerang was a fantastic model and I put it though hell.I had repaired it on a number of occasions and was about to retire it Id bought my first low winger and just lost it due to signal loss,and couldnt find it .It was a Brand new Super Air with all new gear,I was a bit frustrated.Having searched and searched without success,I walked back to the field and everyone said ,get your Boomerang out and have a fly youll feel better.I flew around fast getting the pent up frustration out at losing the Super air missjudged a fast pass coming over some trees and crashed straight into them instead.Off I walked and coudnt find that one.2 days later I found th remains 40 feet up a tree.It was hanging sraight down, no wings they were smashed.We have loads of poles .I finally poked it down and it lande with a plop,yes it was dead.But, I carried out a transplant and it became a Seagull 40.A month later we found the super Air in a Rape seed crop.It was damp but undamaged apart from the wing mount.I did a thread and Ill find it and revive it for you in a moment,Cheers Stephen.PS ON you Spectrum its important to have the TX Aerial not straight but to the right or left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Mackey Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Sorry to sound harsh here, but wrapping aerials inside receiver padding, and not bothering to do a range check ? Thats a bit careless TBH.Also, any Instructor should have made sure the model was safe for flight, which includes a range check...especially a maiden flight. Edited By Timbo - Administrator on 12/04/2010 00:30:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Tim, the one thing at our club is I always get an expert to check my model over before he flies it for me.The way Ive put it together fitted the radio gear and do a range check.Also the C of G on the model.Dont blame yourself get advice here,it could of saved your model..Any help you need these guys will give you its invaluable.My first queery 2 years ago was on a Y lead and how thw ailerons would work in opposit directions,because of the way you fit them obvious now but not to a beginner.On Friday I travelled to Plymouth and bought a model off a guy through E bay.Its not flown and wouldnt,terrible build and totally wrong engine,woulnt have got off thr ground if it had it was o tail heavy it would have crashed.Even the servos are wrongly fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Cheal Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Timbo,>> >> Fair comment, although I did not say I had not "bothered", I said I had not done one, and it guts me now I realise the importance of this. However, like everything it was in fact more complex. I had fitted the radio, taken the model to the model club and the model was safety checked. We did take some time on the settings, although I had it in my mind for a range check we did not fly as I was distracted by engine issues and the range check was not conducted. After this I had to replace the engine (I could write a book on why, but not right now!). >> >> The engine trouble included removing all the radio equipment for a fuel tank check and replacing the fuel lines. It is in the re-stowing that I must have wrapped the aerials up. I fully expected to do a range check before we flew, but for whatever reason we were off.....>> >> I think the whole episode of learning to fly is interesting, and fraught with danger, but it remains a personal responsibility, luckily the radio gear and engine still work fine.>> >> I am going onto the field later to conduct some trials on the range issues with the aerials to prove the diagnosis, I will let you know. But fist I am off to buy a new Seagull (thanks Stephen you have confirmed this is the right thing to do!!).>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Stephen Grigg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Hi Tim I like the Seagull product its good value,none of the models Ive bought has been a problem,any help you need let us Know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Lee Smalley Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Tim sorry to hear about your loss but timbo is right the pre flight checks are vital especially so on a maiden, 99% of the time you will have no problem ......but just that 1% can save you a lot of money and time if you get into a good habit regards checks and they are very quick to do, so i would suggest you train yourself before the first flight of the day to do your range checks and airframe checks, worth it in the long run mate !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Cheal Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Lee, it will be so!! I think I have found a possible cause. I did the range check with the radio kit and found that if I hold the aerials down the side of the receiver (as opposed to perpendicular) the servos simply freeze. This seems consistent with what happened, and whilst I agree this is only one possible cause, I can see nothing else wrong. One aspect that I had considered was servo stall, but as no-one has mentioned this and the servos do seem to be 'man enough for the job' (even thoough they are not the most expensive) I think I can discount that. So, thanks all for your help. the new model is 'in build' and will hopefully be ready soon. I know what mistakes not to make and will be sure to install the radio as specified, and conduct a thorough range check, as well as the other safety checks. I just hope it doesn't take me another 8 months to get this model flying! Thanks all for your pointers and advice. Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... John Privett Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 If you've reproduced the lack of response by folding the aerials as described then that's almost certainly what caused the problem. At least you now know the aerials should be - shame you had to lose a plane finding out though... As for the servos, they're fine. OK, they're not the most powerful in the world at 2.6kg.cm. but perfectly adequate for that model. I've flown much bigger, faster models on servos only slightly more powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Cheal Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Thanks John, Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Tim Mackey Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Glad you have sorted the probem Tim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Kelly Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 This is helpful Checklist The Boomerang is a great model, happy flying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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Steve Fish Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 You have not stated if you were using a buddy lead? If so was it loose or perhaps there was intermittent engagement of the trainer switch? Just a thought.Binding of the push rods is not the answer as they would not have interfered with the ailerons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 what radio system are you using Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Tim, had you rebound the Tx to Rx after you's set the plane up, this would have set the throttle failsafe (throttle to idle), when the elvator control froze did the engine throttle back, if thats the case then it was possibly a loss of signal, which would indicate a Transmitter intermittent fault. If it was only the elevator that didn't respond then this would indicate a problem with the elevator servo or linkage. If the throttle didn't go to failsafe (i.e. go to idle, assuming it had been setup this way) and none of the other controls were responding this would suggest i) No power to Rx, e.g. faulty switch, battery, battery lead etc.ii) Rx failure Re the aerials, it's a good idea to spread them apart but more importantly they should be at 90 deg to each other. If this was the case though then the symptons would be same as loss of signal. Lastly were you on a buddy box, if so it might be worth checking the lead, I've never buddies my Dx6i but the club uses Futaba's with buddy leads on its trainers and we have had some problems with buddy leads causing problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 If you were on a buddy Recently at our club a loose buddy lead meant the model was not being controlled by either Tx.Fortunately the model was happily flying away by itself ,the instructor pulled the lead out and control was back.Trouble is it all happens so fast.Dont fret Tim a guy at our club,very experienced,lots of lessons a professional school totalled three superb models yesterday,the problem,HIMEdited By Stephen Grigg on 11/04/2010 22:36:24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Aerial placement is important on 2.4Ghz stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 Thanks Guys, We were not on a buddy box, simply passing the transmitter. It is a Spectrumm Dx6i with a Spectrum AR6200 receievr. I had bundled the arials in the protective wrapping I had put around the receivers, so they were 'wrapped around' the main and remote receiver, whch we placed about 3 inches apart in the model. Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 Frank, Sorry I missed your question. The throtte to idle failsafe is not set up. Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 The problem may have been the aerial positioning,did you do a range check?Also what position did you have your Tx aerial,Edited By Stephen Grigg on 11/04/2010 23:34:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy watson Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Transmitter voltage 5.4V? Is that normal on a Spektrum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Regards to throttle safe position,if you bound your Rx with the throttle closed it automatically sets that as the safe position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cheal Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 I think the throttle safe was disabled as its something to do with the timer on the DX6i, but I will check. Sadly, I never did do a range check - I will now though, and experiment at range with aeial positioning!! PS, Just looked at your album Stephen, and my Boomerang and yours are very simiar!! What caused that? Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Andy The Dx6i can be 4 X AA = 6 volts batteries or 4 X NiCd or NiMH = 4.8 volts. So 5.4 volts is no problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Posted by Tim Cheal on 11/04/2010 23:23:26:I had bundled the arials in the protective wrapping I had put around the receivers, so they were 'wrapped around' the main and remote receiver, whch we placed about 3 inches apart in the model. That - to me at least - is a possible cause... The aerials should run straight outwards from the receivers, and the satelite rx aerials should ideally be at 90 degrees to the main rx aerials. Wrapping the aerials round the rxs increases the risk of the rx itself blocking the signal to the aerial. Look at the Spektrum manual page 16 for rx installation details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Hi Tim my Boomerang was a fantastic model and I put it though hell.I had repaired it on a number of occasions and was about to retire it Id bought my first low winger and just lost it due to signal loss,and couldnt find it .It was a Brand new Super Air with all new gear,I was a bit frustrated.Having searched and searched without success,I walked back to the field and everyone said ,get your Boomerang out and have a fly youll feel better.I flew around fast getting the pent up frustration out at losing the Super air missjudged a fast pass coming over some trees and crashed straight into them instead.Off I walked and coudnt find that one.2 days later I found th remains 40 feet up a tree.It was hanging sraight down, no wings they were smashed.We have loads of poles .I finally poked it down and it lande with a plop,yes it was dead.But, I carried out a transplant and it became a Seagull 40.A month later we found the super Air in a Rape seed crop.It was damp but undamaged apart from the wing mount.I did a thread and Ill find it and revive it for you in a moment,Cheers Stephen.PS ON you Spectrum its important to have the TX Aerial not straight but to the right or left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Sorry to sound harsh here, but wrapping aerials inside receiver padding, and not bothering to do a range check ? Thats a bit careless TBH.Also, any Instructor should have made sure the model was safe for flight, which includes a range check...especially a maiden flight. Edited By Timbo - Administrator on 12/04/2010 00:30:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Tim, the one thing at our club is I always get an expert to check my model over before he flies it for me.The way Ive put it together fitted the radio gear and do a range check.Also the C of G on the model.Dont blame yourself get advice here,it could of saved your model..Any help you need these guys will give you its invaluable.My first queery 2 years ago was on a Y lead and how thw ailerons would work in opposit directions,because of the way you fit them obvious now but not to a beginner.On Friday I travelled to Plymouth and bought a model off a guy through E bay.Its not flown and wouldnt,terrible build and totally wrong engine,woulnt have got off thr ground if it had it was o tail heavy it would have crashed.Even the servos are wrongly fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cheal Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Timbo,>> >> Fair comment, although I did not say I had not "bothered", I said I had not done one, and it guts me now I realise the importance of this. However, like everything it was in fact more complex. I had fitted the radio, taken the model to the model club and the model was safety checked. We did take some time on the settings, although I had it in my mind for a range check we did not fly as I was distracted by engine issues and the range check was not conducted. After this I had to replace the engine (I could write a book on why, but not right now!). >> >> The engine trouble included removing all the radio equipment for a fuel tank check and replacing the fuel lines. It is in the re-stowing that I must have wrapped the aerials up. I fully expected to do a range check before we flew, but for whatever reason we were off.....>> >> I think the whole episode of learning to fly is interesting, and fraught with danger, but it remains a personal responsibility, luckily the radio gear and engine still work fine.>> >> I am going onto the field later to conduct some trials on the range issues with the aerials to prove the diagnosis, I will let you know. But fist I am off to buy a new Seagull (thanks Stephen you have confirmed this is the right thing to do!!).>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Hi Tim I like the Seagull product its good value,none of the models Ive bought has been a problem,any help you need let us Know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Smalley Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Tim sorry to hear about your loss but timbo is right the pre flight checks are vital especially so on a maiden, 99% of the time you will have no problem ......but just that 1% can save you a lot of money and time if you get into a good habit regards checks and they are very quick to do, so i would suggest you train yourself before the first flight of the day to do your range checks and airframe checks, worth it in the long run mate !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cheal Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Lee, it will be so!! I think I have found a possible cause. I did the range check with the radio kit and found that if I hold the aerials down the side of the receiver (as opposed to perpendicular) the servos simply freeze. This seems consistent with what happened, and whilst I agree this is only one possible cause, I can see nothing else wrong. One aspect that I had considered was servo stall, but as no-one has mentioned this and the servos do seem to be 'man enough for the job' (even thoough they are not the most expensive) I think I can discount that. So, thanks all for your help. the new model is 'in build' and will hopefully be ready soon. I know what mistakes not to make and will be sure to install the radio as specified, and conduct a thorough range check, as well as the other safety checks. I just hope it doesn't take me another 8 months to get this model flying! Thanks all for your pointers and advice. Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 If you've reproduced the lack of response by folding the aerials as described then that's almost certainly what caused the problem. At least you now know the aerials should be - shame you had to lose a plane finding out though... As for the servos, they're fine. OK, they're not the most powerful in the world at 2.6kg.cm. but perfectly adequate for that model. I've flown much bigger, faster models on servos only slightly more powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cheal Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Thanks John, Regards Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Glad you have sorted the probem Tim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 This is helpful Checklist The Boomerang is a great model, happy flying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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