How many Modellers Are Engineers?

[Lee Smalley]

i do not have an eng degree, my children saw to that i have an NVQ level 1 2 and 3 in electronic engineering and then i spent 5 years being taught by the best damn instrument technician i have ever met i have now over 15 years experience as calibration engineer and i am a damned good one i do not need letters after my name to feel like an engineer, indeed some of the people professing to be engineers with letters after their name were some of the worst excuses for an engineer i have ever met!!!

 some of us were never fortunate enough to go to university, you have to take each (engineer as they come)

[Reno Racer]

Thanks BEB, thought we might wonder off down a rabbit hole on this thread.

That's what I thought, irrespective of professional status( I was only bullied into it by my work insisting I was a CEng for my current position), that all modellers were in some way technically minded.

I wonder, .......... I think its my technical interest that attracted me to Jets, then aerobatic planes and finally through to Plan builds - the miniature engineering detail of the airframe and component parts. Of course that,  and flying!

[Lee Smalley]

the famous RJ Mitchell never had an engineering degree from what i can remember and he seemed to know what he was doing

[Tim Hooper]

Under adult supervision, I can change a tap washer.  Does that count for anything?

 

tim

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Mitchell studied at night school for the exams of the RAeroSoc - becoming a chartered member and then a Fellow.

 

But I agree whole heartedly with your basic point Lee. I've meet some very talented engineers with degrees and I've meet equally talented ones without. On the other hand I've met some right duffers on both sides as well! But personally I believe the best engineers are those with good grasp of the theoretical concepts allied to a sound practical training. These have the best of both worlds. I was luckly enough to start my career as an apprentice tool maker, progress to the drawing office, then go to university sponsored by my company. Sadly this route isn't so easy (or available) these days and I feel that is to the disadvantage of many talented young people and UK engineering. Like Medicine,Engineering is as much an art as a science - theory without practical skill and skill without in depth conceptual understanding are both limiting to at least some degree.

 

BEB 

[Gemma Jane]

RJ Mitchell, studied both mathematics and engineering at night school Lee. He was though of the old school starting out as a hands on apprentice engineer and working his way up to Chief engineer. I'm not even sure we had aero degrees back then.

 

You can bet he could have taught the aerodynamics unit of an  aero degree though.

 

Just take the elliptical wing on the Spitfire. It's a theoretically perfect planform for efficiency... it was no accident.

 

He knew his stuff well enough. His sense of humour though might be like many people with more weight on their shoulders than most, tainted with a little self irony.

 

 

 

[Gemma Jane]

Guess who didn't refresh before posting again. 

[Reno Racer]

Well said Gemma and BEB, reagrding RJ Mitchell. You both bet me to it.

I do agree Lee that many Engineers might not be good Technicians, but that's not the point, they are Engineers not Technicians, although I do agree with BEB, that the better Engineers are those that have either been Mechanics, Technicians or whatever (either, what the Eng Council call 'the Mature Route', or those that have worked up through the Engineering ranks),  or those  that fully understand their trade. Some Engineers might be bad Technician/Mechanics, but it with be more difficult for a good Technician/Mechanic to be an Engineer. 

As part of my training, I had to take night classes in mechanical engineering, from fitter onwards, then Degree, then 10 years experience as an Engineer before the UK Engineering Council would award me my CEng status. That is a difficult I route and I bet many of the Engineers you speak of may not have the 'right' letters after their name.

I think much of the emotion involved in these discussion is based on the general UK population misunderstanding of what an Engineer is.

Anyway, without continuing this here, we might want to start a new thread, so that we can continue with the original question about Engineering and modelling.

Edited By Ackers on 04/08/2010 13:37:02

[A.A. Barry]

Tim H, I loved your comment 

B 

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Are carpenters classed as engineers I wonder....after all our models are often made of wood!!!!

 

I wonder if the quality of the engineer is proportional to how self deprecating they are.....Tim H talks about being able to change a tap washer with help but produces some beautiful models (Wasp, Pix-E & many others I'm sure...) 

 

Whats the old saying..."......those who can, do. Those who can't talk about it..."...or something like that !!!

[Gemma Jane]

I think Steve 'it's those who can do, those who can't teach'. My sister told me that one, she's now a teacher.

 

 

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

...and those that can't teach, teach teachers!

 

BEB

[Gemma Jane]

I read this book while at uni

 

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Not-Much-Engineer-Stanley-Hooker/dp/1853102857

 

 

Sir Stanley Hooker had an amazing Engineering career starting out at Rolls-Royce.

 

He was himself a theoretical mathematician and not from an engineering background at all.

 

He relates in the book that when war broke out nobody really knew what to do with him so he was sent to RR as the authorities thought he might be of some help.

 

Having sat for two weeks in an office with nothing to do he took a short walk and wandered into an nearby office. Here a guy was working on drawings for the super charger for the Merlin.

 

Hooker showed an interest and asked if he could take a copy for study. To his surprise the design was not at all efficient. He re-designed it using his mathematical knowledge and increased the power developed by the Merlin engine at altitude. The spitfire Mk V benefited from the improvements and was a major blow to the Nazi campaign.

 

To me Sir Stanley Hooker was an excellent engineer even if a self depreciating one, hence the title of the book which is well worth the read. It was I think a clear case of the academic winning over the hands on engineering that RR excelled at and perhaps something of what was to follow regarding academic engineering degrees as opposed to hands on engineering in aircraft design and other areas in future years.

 

Another engineer worthy of note in the Merlin story is Beatrice Shilling.  I think both help for me to define 'what is an engineer'.

 

It's not just making something that makes an engineer, it's making something that solves a problem or works better, or people said couldn't be done, that for me defines engineering. Some will say though that it's the engineer that finds the cheapest solution that will be the most successful!

 

 

Edit - I should add that the excellent engineers at RR were later to save Sir Stanley Hooker's career, long after he left the company... you'll have to read the book to find out how if you don't already know.

Edited By Gemma Jane on 04/08/2010 15:53:12

[Lee Smalley]

there is no register of an engineering degree in his name, but the point i was making that just because you have letters after your name is no reflection on your abilities in the field, i never had the oportunity for futher education and my companies would never fund such a thing (typical in these days) and i have been over looked for jobs i knew i could do (and so did they) because of some letters, people should not get all high and mighty because they have the degrees, you will tend to find the only difference between me and you is luck and oportunties that have fortunately come your way, i once saved Jaguar car over 2 million a year after explaining why they had thier fuel  flow metering systems were incorectly installed, not bad for an unqualified time served engineer

[Gemma Jane]

Your dead right there Lee.

 

Fact is I'm not a bad ecological consultant,  I have a reputation in the field for bringing in all my contracts on time. Though as you because I do not hold a relevant degree in the area I do miss out at times. Unfortunately I've not got much good to say about any 'university ecologists' who learnt everything from books rather than years of field study and tend to treat the whole thing as a 'tick box' exercise.

 

Such is life.

 

PS I should add I came from a very poor background, both my parents were dead by the time I self funded my access course and degree as a mature student. I made the money riding as motorcycle courier for 9 years in London. Life just got handed on a plate to me lol.

Edited By Gemma Jane on 04/08/2010 16:11:29

[Lee Smalley]

 wow i thought i had it tough !  well done Gemma i am now 37 and only in the last year am i in a position to self fund my way through a degree i left home at 16 had no way of funding any further education and even if i did i could not have gone i had to work to provide, i envy people who have had the oportunities i did not have and i applaude those who took those and ran with it and worked damn hard to get the degrees etc but what i not like is them looking down at me and sneering (and i have had them say this to my face) your not an engineer, mybe not officially but the people who work with me and know me call me an Engineer, and thats good enough for me just wish i could earn the big bucks 30k plus to go along with my abilities

[Doug Ireland]

I'm just a lowly aeroplane sparky but I do have almost 30 years experience in the offshore oil industry. It was my own pure laziness that I didn't get any formal engineering qualifications. I still think I'm smarter than some of the new kids on the block with letters after their names

[Gemma Jane]

Yep, Lee I agree with you too that you should be recognised for your abilities not for pieces of paper.

 

Unfortunately the whole world seems to have moved towards greater specialism and more bits of paper rather than ability.

 

[inspector9566]

lee ackers and gemma I totally agree with you the world has gone mad for bits of paper that say you can do it.

I dont profess to be an engineer i grew up on the buildings and coming from a one parent family if i wanted it i had to earn it if i couldnt earn it, i had to make it i, am not one to be beaten by a problem i will always find a way around it to achive my goal but being in this situation has given me alot of commen sence and determination to perform the task at hand.

I can build you a house, repair your car. plot and navigate a course in a boat but i dont have a piece of paper to say i can.

so according to the H&S exec i cant do it.

but the spottie thats just walked out of the collage with the bit of paper in his hand can but is he safe.

dont get me wrong everyone has to start somewhere but im sorry time served has to be worth more than that bit of paper.

 

Ackers i thought that a domestic engineer was the person that does the cooking and cleaning.

oh that would be me as well then as my wife is confined to a hospital bed at home maybe i can call myself an engineer i better print myself a bit of paper to say i can do lol..

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[James40]

HND Aircraft Engineering, but I can't really say any of the 3 years study helps me fly or build an r/c plane.

Flying is mainly panic punctuated by moments of calm and building is- in my world of ARTF kits, well it's not really building.

 

 The real world of aircraft engineering is somewhat different to model making, the latter is make use of what you've got and bodge what you don't. Those rules just don't exist on the real thing, way too many signatures and accountability for work done.

 

[Vecchio Austriaco]

Electrical engineer, nothing to do with model flying, but the technological background about materials and processing as well as a design background help a lot.

 

As some of you may know I fly mainly electrics - cannot do without the odd spark from time to time 

VA

[Bravedan]

As a boy of about six I'm told I started making kits, not just of planes. I was always wanting to "do things with my hands"  (OOOH ECK MISSIS!!).  By ten I was building bikes from scrap bits, I had offroad "track bikes" with knobbly tyres and low gearing LONG before Mountain Bikes appeared.

 

At school in the final years all the teachers ganged up on me and tried their best to get me to go into Teaching.  They got at me so much I only stayed on a single year, during which I gained two A levels, a Distinction and a Credit. They even "got at" the careers officer, who would talk about nothing else.

 

So, I did my own thing and went into Engineering.  From Apprentice I eventually rose (if that's the right word!) as high as it was possible to go and still have Engineer in the job title. I'm actually qualified in Mechanical, Electrical and Electronic Engineering, not that it really matters a damn, others apparently needed the bits of paper, not me, as I was having too much fun.  I had a wonderful career, good enough to "retire" at 52, ten years ago.

 

For the past five years I have worked part time in a school trying to help kids from 11 up develop their incipient "hands on" ability and find their path, helped by a Headmaster who recognises the need for skills of ALL types to be promoted and is fully prepared to invest in developing engineers for the future.  I use RC in all its forms as the lure and the ones that show an interest beyond just using it have the opportunity to develop their latent skills. It's not pushed on them in any way, they have to show they want it, if all they choose to do is operate, that's fine by me. Sessions are after school, I have members still attending from when I started and numbers float between 15 - 35 depending on other draws on their time.

 

This continues ALL year, I ran a session yesterday flying RC Heli's and driving offroad RC buggies and an offroad RC motor-bike.  Things break, we fix them.........they get exposure................

 

Just had an Email from a mother, part of which reads:-

 

"Thank you so much for giving up your time today,  ******* had a ball. Once we got back home he was in the garage, radio and lab coat on (apparently this helps!!) and he's had the confidence to mend his broken RC car."

 

THATS why I do it!!!!

[Peter Miller]

I always liked making things but I tend to be pretty useless at studying unless something really interests me. Always loved aircraft

 

Spent 12 years as an airframe fitter in the Royal Air Force. (got a Certificate of Merit on the Mechanics course (80%+ mark) because I was so interested) and then spent most of the rest of my working life as a mainenance fitter.

 

I still regret the BMFA changing its name for the Society of Model Aeronautical Engineers. Perhaps there should be a subsection for scratch builder that keep the title.

[Peter Miller]

People have been talking about Mitchell. Let me introduce an even more amazing person.

 

Clayton Folkerts. He was a farm boy who suddenly got an interest in aircraft, designed and built a couple on the farm with varying degrees of success.

 

Don Luscombe asked Clayton to design a two seat side by side enclosed aircraft. Clayton drew it up on the workshop floor.

 

That was the most successful American aircraft of the 30s. The Monocoupe that was developed from the Velie right through to the 110 Clip wing that was still being built in 48.

 

Not only was the Monocoupe a great racing aircraft, it was a good aerobatic mount as well, winning awards in many events including the nationals in 1948

 

Not only that, a few years ago Aviat where going to resurrect the 110 clip wing with a Lycoming engine. Still the basic aircraft that started out as the Velie 13. Built a prototype too.

 

The Monocoupes were a great little aircraft for travelling round but they also won more air races than any other aircraft. At one stage the joke was made that the National Air Races should be renamed the national Monocoupe Races.

 

Clayton also designed several very successful pure racing aircraft.

 

Not bad for a self taught farm boy.

Edited By Peter Miller on 05/08/2010 08:37:43