Taking Off And Landing

[Lee Smalley]

well if you dont allow your model to fly down wind of you you have a very small area to fly in (unless it was about the slope and they dont really have strips) you have to fly down wind of yourself to complete an A cert!!

[John Privett]

Tony, I think you're taking the "don't fly downwind of yourself" advice a little too literally.  What we really mean is "try to avoid flying too far downwind of yourself, taking all other necessary factors into account."  But that's a bit long-winded to say!

[Stephen Grigg]

Thanks for youe opinions.Firstly to clarifyone point.We arrive and park in one field.We then walk across a stream through some trees to the flyinf field take off area.but because of a complaint many years ago about the models scaring her horses,so they turned the site round so that we fly over the field we park in.But the pitts are located on the otherside of the field so we walk across the take off area to get to the pitts.I have been teaching myself to take off from the side with the Fun Cub so I am going in the right direction. Also because of my struggle walking at present I place the model on the side of the field away from the pitts so I have a short walk to the pilot flying area.We have only just adopted this procedure and have had more middairs since because some people havent go used to the new rule so pilots in the correct box dont realise someone else has taken off.I also have to move myself to the edge of the box when landing so I have a clear view for landing the model without other pilots being in my vision.We also only have one pilots box but are aloud to walk down to the other end for landing.somone correctly stated that it is people with a lck of rudder control who need to stand behind the model and that was my problem which has now improved

[Garry Pollard]

Makes me wonder about renaming your club. Bedlam or Madhouse comes to mind LOL

On a serious note cant your committee get together and format some rules that all people have to abide to in the interests of safety. It sounds a bit like an accedent waiting to happen. Have you not got a safety officer or is that our mutual friend , because if so maybe that is the root of the problem

Garry

[Garry Pollard]

As an afterthought you have certainly started a good topic. Good for you mate

Garry

[fly boy3]

I am with Tim on this one, do what you are comfortable with, as long as it is safe,and also comply with your club rule book regarding t/o and landing if applicable.  Cheers.

          We also ask any pilot in the box (centre of strip) if it is ok to take off.

 

 

[Chris Bell]

Yes John you could say that, it feels like goverment at times

 

Intersting stuff though - most of the model clubs I've flown at have the pilots box about half way down the strip.

 

Never occured to me to have it any other way.

 

Although I do agree with Garry though - a good safety officer is essential to any club, ours (Wayne) has a very calm head on his shoulders and tends to view things in the round a little more than me.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Stephen Grigg]

We have no safety officer  but club committee members tend to remind those who are wandering around whilst flying

[Chris Bell]

This is us

 

and No we dont have any full size flying here either

 

Chris

[Lee Wilson]

  I must say that as a beginner when I was trained by Chris at Winterton Model Flying Club I found that taxiing the aircraft out from the pilot box and then taking off was no problem.

  I think it helped me to have the aircraft running down the strip in front of you to get used to the view of the model from the side ready for when you are learning landing, as you dont stand on the strip at that time when it's coming towards you

  I also think that being stood next to anybody else that is flying at the time allows for better communication and makes thing safer.

 

[Phil 9]

Not all models can taxi.

 

I have seen a few trike models with a fixed front wheel. It has to be carried and placed onto the start point

 

Edited By Phil B on 19/08/2010 18:32:53

[David perry 1]

Posted by Phil B on 19/08/2010 18:30:12:

Not all models can taxi.

 

I have seen a few trike models with a fixed front wheel. It has to be carried and placed onto the start point

 

Edited By Phil B on 19/08/2010 18:32:53

 And some are hand launched!

 

I see no problem with a pilot standing pretty much where he likes provided that if there is more than one pilot flying he goes back to join them after take off.  Its not just about comms I think, something to do with relative RF strengths as well -  or at least it always was, and it seems like good practice. 

 

I always call, and encourage students to call, not only landing and take off, but also that they are are going onto the strip and when they are clear of the strip.  Firstly a request (okay of I take off Geoff?, Okay if I go onto the strip guys?) and then a statement call ("take off! " or "launching" or "on the strip") and then and clear call (" I'm off the strip guys, thanks", which may be required after a landing of course.).

 

The real concern is that everyone knows where the other models and modellers are and that no ones ability to land (which may be dead stick or some other emergency) is compromised. 

 

Standing by the side is good sense and a worthy skill, but standing behind the model at take off is simply the only way some (beginners) can do it.  And if its a hand launch the only way anyone can do it.  I think the ability to then walk back to the pits whilst flying the model is also an essential skill. 

 

Having said all that, the chap who berates the OP for his modelling style is still out of order.  There are ways and means of doing things and this clubmate seems well out of order.

 

D 

Edited By David perry 1 on 19/08/2010 21:08:11

[Tim Mackey]

DP1 said...

 

"I think the ability to then walk back to the pits whilst flying the model is also an essential skill."

 

Errrr, I think its a hanging offence actually.

I presume you actually meant the pilots box NOT the pits

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I was taught to take off and land from the pilots box from day one and so have never stood behind a model on take-off. And in our club its still like that. All beginners are taught to take off from the pilots box. Personally I prefer this - but then as its what I'm used to I would wouldn't I. One advantage I do see is that its much easier to do a scale-like take off with a model from this angle.

 

We recently had a Traplett Scale Day and some of our members were absolutely agast to see visiting pilots walking out onto the strip to stand behind their models for take off! As gracous hosts we of course said nothing but it definitely raised a few eyebrows!

 

This system does cause a issue for some beginners - but all of them do master it - some of them eventually. Though I would admit that we have to take a firm hand in instructing learners that if it starts squirrelling on them during the takeoff run they must abort the take off in the interests of safety (our pilot's box is mid strip). They are reminded that aborting a take off run for safety reasons is not a failure in the A - but loosing control of the model and endangering other pilots is!

 

BEB

 

PS - Stephen - your club amazes me!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Hand launching has been brought up by a few posters but our normal practice is to ask other pilots for permission to launch and walk out a few paces for the launch.  Ground run is. of course, of no concern so launching from mid strip is no problem.

[Garry Pollard]

I must say that at my last club where I was instructer and examiner I would not pass anyone for an A or B certificate unless they took off and landed from the pilots box, and also if anyone else was flying when tested  the necessary request for permission to take off, and letting other pilots know what they were doing was noted. Maybe in hose days we were too strict but I know for a fact that in all the years I ran the club there were no accedents that could be put down to rule breaking. How do I know, easy, I was the safety officer

Garry

[Stephen Grigg]

Just lost a big posttal response,have to build my energy level up again

[John Privett]

Posted by Garry Pollard on 19/08/2010 23:20:47:

I must say that at my last club where I was instructer and examiner I would not pass anyone for an A or B certificate unless they took off and landed from the pilots box,

 

(Lack of) consistency of standards in A/B tests is probably a different topic altogether,  but the BMFA guidance notes specifically state that...

 

The pilot may stand where he chooses but if he stands out on the strip (behind the model when it starts its run) he should inform other pilots flying that he is going out onto the active area.

 

Totally agree about making the necessary calls though.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Some interesting points there John/Garry.

 

As John correctly points out - the BMFA guidance for the A states "the pilot may stand where he chooses". But it also states that the pilot must show a knowledge of and comply with any local (club) rules.

 

Suppose the club rules require him to stand in the pilot box (as ours do). Which rule do we follow? I know that in my club you can carry a model out onto the strip - if it wont taxi - with the necessary calls "On the Strip", "Srip Clear" etc, But you can't stay there for the take off. And I think our examiners would fail you if you did - because you would be in breech of a club rule.

 

Another question. How does the BMFA guidance that "the pilot may stand where he chooses" square with the well known (strong) BMA guidance that transmitters should not be taken onto the strip. This one has bothered me for a while!

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 20/08/2010 00:38:48

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

An easy question for once!

 

Local rules must take precedence over BMFA guidance (which is what the handbook is - it's not strict rules).  The only rules which are compulsory in the handbook are those directly related to the Air Navigation Order - but the ANO is the authority, not the BMFA handbook.

 

As for transmitters on the strip, I take the view that this relates to operating far away from other pilots such that there might be a serious degredation in the strength of the received signal and a danger of interference (a fairly unlikely event?) from a transmitter being operated much closer to the model. The other pilot is likely to still be reasonably close after venturing out to take off.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/08/2010 01:32:37

[John Privett]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother on 20/08/2010 00:37:46: 

 

Suppose the club rules require him to stand in the pilot box (as ours do). Which rule do we follow? I know that in my club you can carry a model out onto the strip - if it wont taxi - with the necessary calls "On the Strip", "Srip Clear" etc, But you can't stay there for the take off. And I think our examiners would fail you if you did - because you would be in breech of a club rule.

And I think that would be the correct interpretation.  The guidelines permit the candidate to stand out on the strip,  but if the club rules don't then it can't be allowed in a test at that location.  

 

I'm not sure though how an examiner can justify failing a candidate who does something that the test guidelines specifically permit.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Because he just failed to comply with a local rule - knowledge of which is an important part of the test. The dispensation to stand behind the model is just that - an option, which would not be available at that site - it's not as though the candidate has failed to complete a testable item which would be a cause for concern should the examiner pass them.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/08/2010 01:57:56

[Brian Cooper]

All beginners at our Club are taught to take off and land from the pilots box, which is positioned at the mid-point on our 110 yards runway.

We teach our novices that the runway is "live" and a dangerous place to be. So, for safety reasons, it is highly frowned upon to stand behind a model to do the take off. This is because it seems to take some pilots far too long to get a model off the ground and all the while they are faffing about, no-one can fly near the runway or land. Plus, if someone gets a dead-stick, the chap who has wandered out onto the runway can't hear the (dead stick) calls over the sound of his engine.

It also seems to take people too long to get off the runway after they have taken off, as they appear to be incabale of walking and flying a model at the same time.

It is also highly frowned upon to start a take off run from the far end of the runway as it could endanger the other pilots if the model gets out of shape.  In any case, the practice is not necessary as most models take off within three or four seconds.

All take offs are done starting from the area about 30ft in front of the pilots box.

 

We have only one runway, and it is 25 yards wide.  If the wind is not coming stright down the runway, the pilots have to learn how to fly crosswind.

 

B.C.

[Stephen Grigg]

Fascinating and interesting stuff.My first observations on thinking of the responses is there are few people at our club who do not take off  without being behind the model,so this must stem from the insructors originally.It is only this year the committee passed a ruling to have a pilots box at all and this is placed on the right side of the pits only,it does not vary from wind direction.We can leave the box to land.Early on you learn to be aware of the whereabouts of people as the design of the site necessitates having to cross the strip on arrival to reach the pit area..We do have good calling discipline and awareness of  the deaf members who do there own thing.In the time Ive been at the club we have had no accidents.the comments of someone faffing around after take off doesnt happen normally.The area that does cause cocern are the glider and tug pilots.They take forever to place the glider at the end of the strip,get the tug into position connect the tow rope,confer that there both switched on take up the slack and then take off.They then continue to stand at the end of the strip whilst flying.The tug pilot then lands and there is another glider pilot waiting at the end of the strip for his tow.You cannot connect glider and tug any other way than being on the strip and you cannot taxi a glider from the pilots box,so Im interested in how clubs go about this part of the hobby.We do have a second field for electric and glider,Ive never been there and do not know there procedures,but we have plenty of gliders at our club more during the week than weekend.When there is a glider event at a weekend they get precedence

[David Turner 5]

There's nothing "wrong" with standing behind your model for take-off. It's not some sin that is proscribed in a holy book, somewhere.

 

The "usual crowd" propose it as a safety benefit ... and who can argue against "safety"? Eh?

 

IMO, directional control is better maintained when the pilot stands abaft the model during departure. When he is 50 yards away, and to one side, it is much more difficult to detect deviations as they develop. It doesn't matter who you are. You wouldn't try to thread a needle by holding it at arms length, would you? No, you'd put your eye "behind" it.

 

Safety is better served by first  having the model under control (and making that as easy as possible for the pilot).  Secondly, avoid standing in front of models ... eg, don't take off towards the pilots. Finally, I would point out that it is good airmanship to depart and touchdown at the threshold. Landing at the runway's mid-point is fool-hardy, where it can be avoided.

 

 

I forgot to add that there is a cadre of modellers who believe that flying should be made as difficult as possible, rather than as easy as possible. Not too sure why this is, Perhaps its so that fewer people can attain their status. There's nothing virtuous about making a complex task even more difficult to achieve.

Edited By David Turner 5 on 20/08/2010 08:07:38