Taking Off And Landing

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Which would you rather be hit by?  A model at flying speed and head height, while standing by the threshold or one at taxying speed after an aborted takeoff?

 

I know that neither "should" happen but that's the nature of an accident. I feel it's far safer to train people to recognise when things are going wrong and abort before a dangerous situation arises.  Allowing what I feel to be unneccesary access to the live flying area increases the danger to the individual and can hazard models by forcing them to land off field should they deadstick or run short of flight battery.

 

As`to the "usual crowd" arguing in favour of safety, what's unreasonable about that? Whilst being wary that just because most people do it one way it's not necessarily best, surely it's significant that most clubs worldwide (AFAIK) and certainly all public shows that I've attended, operate with a pilot's box to one side of the runway?

[Ultymate]

 David Turner wrote

 

"I forgot to add that there is a cadre of modellers who believe that flying should be made as difficult as possible, rather than as easy as possible. Not too sure why this is, Perhaps its so that fewer people can attain their status. There's nothing virtuous about making a complex task even more difficult to achieve."

Edited By David Turner 5 on 20/08/2010 08:07:38

I would not wish to make model flying more difficult for anyone, but when all said and done if it were totally easy would it be worth doing in the first place? There always has been and always will be a vast variety of flying abilities amongst the flyers at any club. Many flyers reach a certain standard of flying and settle into their comfort zone at that level and that is absolutely fine by me providing they meet local club criteria on safety. If they then have to move outside their comfort zone to meet  achange in safety requirements (club rule change) then so be it but Idon't think any club worth it's salt is going to change safety procedures just to make life more difficult for some or virtuous for others JMHO 

 

Edited By Ultymate on 20/08/2010 09:55:03

[John Privett]

Posted by Martin Harris on 20/08/2010 01:49:10:

Because he just failed to comply with a local rule - knowledge of which is an important part of the test. The dispensation to stand behind the model is just that - an option, which would not be available at that site - it's not as though the candidate has failed to complete a testable item which would be a cause for concern should the examiner pass them.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/08/2010 01:57:56

 

Oops,  re-reading what I wrote there was a certain amount of ambiguity in it! 

 

When I said, "I'm not sure though how an examiner can justify failing a candidate who does something that the test guidelines specifically permit." I meant that where the local rules permit standing behind the model,  and the BMFA test guidlines permit standing behind the model, how can an examiner justify failing a candidate for doing precisely that?  I believe that was the situation mentioned in Garry's earlier post.  I certainly agree that if a candidate breaches a local club rule during a test then they should fail, even if what they did would otherwise have been OK.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Interesting one but as the test is meant to be a national qualification then I'd say that they would either need to vary the club rule for the purpose of the test if this becomes a requirement or take the test elsewhere!

 

The manouevres are a compulsary part of the test - for example the requirement to take off from the ground (for the power A) requires a model capable of doing so - no exception can be made.

 

...and I've just re-read your post and I don't think the above really answers it!  I would say that there can be no justification for failing someone adhering to both the test and local rules and if that happened they should feel free to take it up with the local scheme co-ordinator.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/08/2010 10:35:36

[Chris Bell]

Its not a qualification - its an achievement ...

 

 

Chris

[David Turner 5]

Which would you rather be hit by?  A model at flying speed and head height, while standing by the threshold or one at taxying speed after an aborted takeoff?

 

 

You're mixing oranges and lemons, here.

 

If pilots are at the threshold, they can't be hit by a model taxying during take-off.

 

Why am I any more likely to be hit by a model "at flying speed", if I stand at the threshold?

 

 

[J Myers III]

Posted by Aslan on 19/08/2010 09:17:17:
Yep..... Take off standing behind model Stephen and land from pilots area. Then when you land..... beat him severely around the head,neck and upper torso. Cross the strip to get to the pitts??????? 

 HaHa

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by David Turner 5 on 20/08/2010 10:57:15:

Which would you rather be hit by?  A model at flying speed and head height, while standing by the threshold or one at taxying speed after an aborted takeoff?

 

 

You're mixing oranges and lemons, here.

 

If pilots are at the threshold, they can't be hit by a model taxying during take-off.

 

Why am I any more likely to be hit by a model "at flying speed", if I stand at the threshold?

 

 

 Because a small error of judgement/ineptitude (you have people learning/recently qualified I assume?) puts you (and any other pilots/assistants present) very close to a model which is on the last stages of a landing approach.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Chris Bell on 20/08/2010 10:52:26:

Its not a qualification - its an achievement ...

 

 

Chris

 Fair comment - although it's seen as such at most clubs.

[Marc Humphries]

Mmmm...

 

All of this is very interesting - and reminds me why I very seldom fly with a club these days.

[Stephen Grigg]

I put the question of standing behind a model to one of my expert collegues today.Unterestingly he states, If you are going to maiden fly a new model it is essential to stand behind it because you have no idea what it is going to do and your peripheral behind the models allows you to react much quicker.Once the model is trimmed and set up correctly it is than safe to take off from the side.Are there therfore times like this when clubs allow there modellers to do this on a maiden flight? 

[David Turner 5]

Posted by Marc Humphries on 20/08/2010 11:15:08:

Mmmm...

 

All of this is very interesting - and reminds me why I very seldom fly with a club these days.

 

 

Too right.

 

Our little club has just one rule ... "Don't do nuthin' dumb". And it works.

 

Every time someone decides to get a bit officious, they get told to Eff Off, by everyone else.

 

And, you know what ...  nobody died!

 

 

 

 

 

All of which is not to suggest that we don't conform to local rules when we visit other people. When in Rome, and all that..

 

 

Edited By David Turner 5 on 20/08/2010 11:55:51

[Stephen Grigg]

Ive just made an interesting discovery about the pilot box.It was one club members idea.On Sunday said member was flying a Junior 60 look alike.NOT in the pilots box, in the pitts sitting in his chair,the plot thickens

[Stephen Grigg]

We all these rules you other clubs have,where do you stand when you send a model off with a bungee!!!

[Aslan]

I find it weird why some say it is dangerous to take off standing behind your model. With a full view of the pits and fellow pilots plus an absolute view of the models direction, why so?

Somebody shouts landing you don't go out. At our club all models must be carried out to the centre of the patch,and away you go, and with a light hand on the shoulder,led back to the pilot area and everyone knows what's happening. Another thing is, although people admit it is easier they still say it is unsafe.Surely the easiest is the safest under any circumstance. I take off  using both the options mentioned throughout this thread,with no second thoughts,but standing behind the model is much safer imho. And also "Don't do nuthin' dumb"

Edited By Aslan on 20/08/2010 12:24:39

[Garry Pollard]

Aslan

I feel you have missed the point slightly. You state that if someone shouts landing you dont go out, what happens if he shouts landing when you are already out there clearing the engines throat, you wont hear a thing, and it would be even more dangerious if he had a dead stick

Garry

[Lee Smalley]

if you want to stand behind your models then do so there is nothing to say you can't  just clear the runway as soon as possible its no biggie our club trys to encourage you to learn to take off from the side its safer from the perspective of take off speed (ie its easier to judge side on) but its not mandatory, being part of a club is brilliant marc you should try it as long as you are not over officious its not a problem we have simple rules that we adhere to and its done to promote safety, nothing else and the rules are common sense

ie

dont stand on the strip tunning your engine, ask before you go on the strip and inform others when you are clear  basic common courtesy and manners

i personally find it easier to take off from the side

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Stephen Grigg on 20/08/2010 11:54:18:

I put the question of standing behind a model to one of my expert collegues today.Unterestingly he states, If you are going to maiden fly a new model it is essential to stand behind it because you have no idea what it is going to do and your peripheral behind the models allows you to react much quicker.Once the model is trimmed and set up correctly it is than safe to take off from the side.Are there therfore times like this when clubs allow there modellers to do this on a maiden flight? 

 

Sorry, but as someone who is regularly asked to maiden models for other club members, I have never felt the need to stand behind one.  I have a left hand which controls the rudder AND the throttle!  Quite frankly, I'd question the competence of someone incapable of using these 2 controls from any direction and angle to maiden a model for someone else. It's just as important to monitor the pitch control aspects which you then have a proper view of as well as a perspective view of the direction of the ground run which should be more than sufficient to assess its direction.

 

Posted by Stephen Grigg on 20/08/2010 12:10:02:

We all these rules you other clubs have,where do you stand when you send a model off with a bungee!!!

 Usually at the side of the runway from close to the pilot's box.  Like a hand launch, there's no ground run to consider.

[Lee Smalley]

david wrote" is good airmanship to depart and touchdown at the threshold. Landing at the runway's"

 

no its not its good airmanship to be able to put the aircraft down where i want it to come down rather than have to stand on the threshold to achieve this

 

so you all stand at one end of the runway do you !  strange !!

[Lee Smalley]

sorry with martin on this one virtually never maiden an aircraft standing behind it no need to i have a rudder

[Aslan]

Come on Garry, not missing the point at all. It should take no more than 15 to 20 seconds to do the usual checks. What I am saying is,if you prefer to take off standing behind the model,go ahead,it is not unsafe....someone shouts landing or dead stick just walk back in and leave the model,same as you would do from the side(except you don't have to walk in) Leave the model where it is. Why is it deemed unsafe was my point,and nothing else.

Edited By Aslan on 20/08/2010 12:59:26

[Garry Pollard]

I say again Aslan, If you hear him shout dead stick which is very doubtfull if your engine is on full bore. "Safe or what" I would still maintain not safe

Garry

[Aslan]

It would be obvious that he did not hear the call, and he would be made aware by someone else,surely. In fact the person who called landing should be aware that someone is "on the patch" pilot or dog or deer,in our case, and he would/should be made aware....... and go around again. If he calls dead stick, believe me all ears go up at our patch, and everyone is aware, so he would be made aware by one of us walking out hastily to inform him... common courtesy and awareness, as Lee pointed out.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Don't get fixated by specific site layouts and circumstances.  We're looking at the big picture and trying to minimise uneccessary hazards. Local rules exist to take specific differences from the ideal layout into account.

[Garry Pollard]

Not trying to be difficult but what happens if there is only two people at the field. One has a dea and when the rules are made all aspects and eventualities must be considered

Garryd stick one is out on the strip with engine going full blast. If my club ruls are adheared to no problem, both in pilots box . In your case danger. Rules are made for  flyers be it one, two or twenty