Taking Off And Landing

[Aslan]

Garry should be aware that there are only two flying and is also aware that no.2 might call out dead stick at any time and keep the ears and eyes open...... and vice versa.... of course.

Look,it's not like both are a million miles apart. What if the "behind the model" flyer goes home....... I think not..... Communication is a wonderful thing 

[David Turner 5]

If you think it's good practice to land half-way up the runway ... by the pilot's box ... why not simply scrap half of your runway and save the cutting fee?

 

Then, you'll be departing and landing at the threshold, like me.

 

 

My own practise is to taxy to the threshold for power checks. Then, I taxy the model onto the runway and depart.  I usually stand at the threshold, but not on the runway, unless I'm particularly concerned about the model's behaviour.

 

In any case, my runway is just 60 yards long, so landing half-way along it would be pretty dumb. So, too, with departures from the mid-point.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Well, there's nothing wrong with touching down near the threshold - and what most capable pilots will aim at, finishing with a roll out to depart the runway at an appropriate place.  What's at issue is where you're standing and I still contend that it's more hazardous to be standing close to a model that's descending through the last few feet i.e. head height,and often coming in to ground induced turbulence, than a possible situation at shin height.

[Stephen Grigg]

Please explain the threshold to me chaps thankyuo

[David Turner 5]

Posted by Stephen Grigg on 20/08/2010 14:48:59:

Please explain the threshold to me chaps thankyuo

 

 

The first part of the runway which is available for landing. 

 

This is not necessarily the first part of the runway which is available for departure.

[Stephen Grigg]

Thanks David,since the horses have left our threshold as gone further back because they chewed the grass better than our mower!!

[Lee Smalley]

Cutting fee?

 

we are fortunate to have 100 meters to land in, it would be very stupid to aim for the threshold just as stupid for you to aim middle of the strip if you only have 60 yards,

 

my point is its safer for me to aim for touchdown at about 10 to 20 meters  so the aircraft comes to a halt just past myself, we have very long grass in the out field and as such it would be a bit daft to aim for the threshold and get caught by the long grass, every site is different and you have to take this into account when flying but to suggest you stand at the threshold for landing hmmmm, no sorry don't agree maybe its just me but i don't feel the need to stand behind the model for TO nor do i feel the need to stand at the threshold to land no matter how short the runway

[Stephen Grigg]

I agree with you re landing Lee,I have found with all pilots bunched together you have to manouvre your self to get a good vision of the model and strip to land.Yes I want to land on the strip and leave plenty of slowing down area,andI want to land near the end of thetripc but it doesnt work that way every time.

[Myron Beaumont]

Slightly aside from the theme of the thread but does everyone take off right to left & land the same way standing back a few feet from the mid point  of their strip from choice , I do 99% of flying alone and dread the thought of having to wait to fly & be told what's right or otherwise . If the model is one that I've not flown before I always stand right behind it for its first TO as I can judge any runway surface /wind effect easier on the run & after TO to make initial adjustments .

[CARBON_ROD]

  At my club you don't cross the patch at all ,unless of course you dump you;r plane in a field on the other side ,in our pits each member has a slab were you stick your restrainer in the back and site your plane on ,and you can't taxi out when taking off all stand together on separate slabs of course and we are not aloud to roam about to take of ,suppose it;s safer that way , the only thing i find worrying is if  your plane has gone down on the other side ,while who ever is trying to locate their plane some other members are still flying about over you.r head ,DANGEROUSE or what?

[Yorkman]

Interesting range of views-across the extremes.

For myself, I have never been a club member, so haven't 'had' to comply with local rules.

I can see that standing in the pilots' box to takeoff as well as land is the sensible, safer thing to do-especilly with i.c.engined models-that are usually airborne within a couple of seconds and don't really have a 'ground roll' as such! And make hearing a shouted warning much harder.

I have only flown electric power, and when the York first flew 6 years ago, conserving every volt in its twin nicad packs was essential-taxying never happened! Also I would challenge anyone out there to stand 30 yards off its starboard bow and get it off the ground pointing within 40 degrees of where you initially aimed-certainly at the strip I fly it from.

It needs FULL starboard rudder at initial roll (to counteract the torque from four geared motors?)is VERY sensitive to any crosswind component, and with a bumpy surface, usually with quite long grass, needs plenty of correction before reaching flying speed-which takes a good 40 yards or so. If I ever found myself at one of these places that 'insisted' I takeoff from the box, I would have to apply for special dispensation!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I never realised that the rudder worked differently when you're standing behind the model!  Is it due to stronger radio waves?

[Stephen Grigg]

Interestingly Yorkman I flew on my own for the first 6 months in a disused field behind work.I used to land wherever was convenient,just bring it into wind ,thats where im going to walk so if I land over there its not so far to carry it.So when joining a club and standing in a good size field and told this little mown patch in the middle is our take off and landing strip.Id never taken off from the ground before so it was a new adventure all ove again

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

To answer your question Myron - Both. That is to say we have a single runway and a single pilot's box with the pits behind. So whether we take off and land "left to right" or "right to left" depends on which way the wind is blowing!

 

BEB

[Aslan]

It's not like the lad who calls landing is within seconds of doing so lads,and on his final approach...... Jeeez...... Why all the panic when someone wants to land???? By all means call it,but if someone is in the middle of taking off and standing behind his model, let him go for it...... then land. If it's an emergency and you are losing control, for whatever reason, you shouldn't be even thinking of  ditching/attempting to recover/or land an out of control model anywhere near the patch. Again I say " communication" you don't call landing and wonder if the guy trying to take off heard you, you make sure he and everyone else heard you. At our patch when you call "landing" you wait for someone to say "clear". If you're in trouble you call "help" everyone looks up and is alert to the fact that someone has a problem. I like this thread.... a lot of heated, but constructive opinions.  

Edited By Aslan on 21/08/2010 04:17:16

[David Turner 5]

Posted by Martin Harris on 20/08/2010 21:33:02:

I never realised that the rudder worked differently when you're standing behind the model!  Is it due to stronger radio waves?

 

 

 

This is a "straw man" argument, since no-one ever claimed that the rudder becomes less effectual in correspondence to the pilot's position.

 

 

The main argument revolves about the perceptual abilities of humans; and how those abilities are affected by proximity to the model.

 

 

 

 

Edited By David Turner 5 on 21/08/2010 06:56:35

[Aslan]

Agree. It is far easier to steer an R/C car when it is traveling away from you or "perpendicular' to your line of vision. Less accurate when traveling "parallel" to you line of vision. We are only steering a model on the ground after all...... aren't  we?

[David Turner 5]

Posted by Aslan on 21/08/2010 08:43:51:
Agree. It is far easier to steer an R/C car when it is traveling away from you or "perpendicular' to your line of vision. Less accurate when traveling "parallel" to you line of vision. We are only steering a model on the ground after all...... aren't  we?

 

 

We are.

 

There are some people who believe that the "worthiness" of the task is a function of its difficulty. This is probably true when it comes to mountaineering. But, when you apply that thinking to a hobby, you do little but create successive "peaks" which the novice must continually strive to ascend ... imo, unnecessarily.

 

 

Let's not forget where these ideas (pilot's box et al) originated. If I'm not mistaken, they were first mooted by the LMA crowd. Once written down and disseminated, these ideas have taken on lives of their own. They have become de facto "rules" by virtue of the fact that they ARE written down and repeated often. Mantra- like.

 

Rarely are they questioned.

 

The concept of, "We think this is a good idea; and you are going to do it."  just doesn't work for me. It's just another example of a vocal few who wish to impose their views upon others ... generally in the guise of "safety".

[Bruce Richards]

I think the problem here is about interpretation and enforcement of rules. When the club atmosphere is friendly, open, cooperative and flexible all these problems disappear. It's only when you get  an over zealous individual trying to tell others what to do that problems occur. It's for more about attitude that its is about this rule or that rule.

Edited By Bruce Richards - Moderator on 21/08/2010 09:31:46

[Brian Cooper]

Posted by Myron Beaumont on 20/08/2010 19:22:03:

Slightly aside from the theme of the thread but does everyone take off right to left & land the same way standing back a few feet from the mid point  of their strip from choice , I do 99% of flying alone and dread the thought of having to wait to fly & be told what's right or otherwise . If the model is one that I've not flown before I always stand right behind it for its first TO as I can judge any runway surface /wind effect easier on the run & after TO to make initial adjustments .

 

 

Sorry for the slight departure from the topic, but it brings to mind a little anecdote:

I was at fly-in recently and the wind was such that the take offs were from left to right. One of the local lads had a huge model with a 100cc petrol engine, and he stood behind the thing for the take off.  He was on the runway for at least two minutes whilst checking his engine, checking the controls, taxiing around, etc, etc --- I hasten to add that everyone else took off from the pilots box without any fuss.

The pilot of this large aeroplane showed a distinct lack of talent throughout the flight, which came to a head when it came time for the landing.   Four other aircraft were flying, but the pilot crossed the runway because, he confessed, "he couldn't land from left to right and can only land from right to left."  And this was a chap who supposedly had a "B" Certificate. 

I quietly packed up my gear and went home in disgust.

 

 

[Stephen Grigg]

I think you have it Bruce,Our club atmosphere is very good ,and it stems from our club chairman who is a total enthusiast and the expert members who eagerly impart there knowledge on us newer people.I know my friend Michael tried a couple of clubs before us and found it ti regimental.We have good discipline in that all members call there intensions others inform him its clear and we all participate in the best possible way to ensur safety is at a premium.This thread has taught me so much about other clubs and I have to say although it appears to others mt club is Fred Carnos Circus,Im even more happy I joined the right club.Ive taken on board the opinions and understand the reasons.I believe that I prefer to take off standing behind the model because at 65 and still a lot to learn Ive been driving my car looking forward I dont drive by standing by the side.Everyon is right and Aslan has put it well,Its a hobby that we do to enjoy ourselves

[John Muir]

Behind the model or from the pilots' box? It doesn't really matter. The question should be 'in a busy club environment, how long should you be allowed to block the active runway?' If you're not in a club environment, who cares? If a pilot walks out, places his model, takes off immediately and walks briskly off to the side, then that is no different to one who walks out, places his model, walks briskly off to the side then takes off. The big problems arise when the 'behind the model' pilot gets airborne, then stays put while he fights an out of trim model, or sidles slowly off the runway while trying not to fall over. It's basically not a good idea to hang about on the active runway, so our club rules stipulate that you should never loiter or make adjustments or restart engines while on the runway. Seems to do the trick most of the time although we still get the odd one who thinks the take off isn't complete until at least one full circuit has been flown! In case you haven't guessed, I prefer to take off from the pilots' box. I don't like trying to walk and fly at the same time. Given the choice, depending on which plane I'm flying and which runway we're using, I like to put the model down off the runway edge, go to the box, ask permission to take off, then once I get the nod I taxi out onto the runway and take off immediately. I like doing it this way because if someone calls an urgent landing or deadstick at that moment I can hear them properly and I don't have to rush to clear the runway.

My tuppence worth.

[Stephen Grigg]

And worth every Penny John

[Bob Moore]

Interesting stuff.  I like to stand behind the model because some of mine don't track very straight and it's much easier to see any slight deviation and catch it before it gets out of control. It's the pilots eye view I suppose.  I 've been told by an instructor that I should stand to the side (we don't have a pilot box we kind of stand together near our pits?)

We are supposed to shout 'on the strip' strip clear etc. Well I do at any rate!

 

Next time he mentions it I'll mention the BMFA    A guidelines which someone mentioned a way back.

 

PS  Only passed my A a couple of months ago.

 

 

[Myron Beaumont]

Do you know what ,if H & S latch onto this thread they're going to impose compulsory Air Traffic Control before you know it (radar etc etc / appointed controller after a democratic election /etc again -you name it ).

I'm going to 'er indoors' farm next week where I can fly on my own to my hearts content (even without silencers !) .

At the moment ,I'm checking everything over ( 8 models & equipment )  . No rules & regs ,in other words --A perfect  holiday . AND I shall do a bit of fishing in the river at the bottom of the garden -No licence required !

PS

The sheep are preparing the runway in all directions

Edited By Myron Beaumont on 21/08/2010 13:39:20