I say ban 'em !

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Possibly slightly off topic but relevant to the subject of public misunderstanding was the reaction of a friend's new lady who we took to Barkston.  On witnessing the demise of the B52 as we were walking through the trade stands and expressing our sadness at the loss of the B52 she said in a shocked voice, "Never mind the plane, what about the poor people in it..."

 

To say she was relieved when we explained was an understatement!

Edited By Martin Harris on 10/11/2010 11:48:15

[Ross Clarkson]

Well if this thread really has made a member with nearly 800 posts unsubscribe, then it definitely has not achieved the desired effect!!!

[Ross Clarkson]

Cancel that, I have just realised who Andy is!!!! I assume a columnist hasn't unsubscribed!!! Ha ha. Sorry.

[Doug Ireland]

I certainly hope he hasn't left, that would be a bit petty.

 

I'll bet Timbo wasn't expecting the sort of reaction he got when he chucked his hat in the ring!

 

Interesting thread though

[Lee Smalley]

people are wandering off topic slightly and starting to mention socialist states etc what it comes down to is the behaviour of us humans and banning this and that serves virtually no purpose it would not take much for me to make either a home made turbine and a plank and go and try to fly it nothing you scream at trying to ban somthing is going to make the smallest difference if the person is stupid enough to do it, most incidents of injuries and fatalities in this hobby have nothing to do with the performance of the aircraft 90% of the time its shear bad luck saying that there is a time and a place for this type of performance is fine but to limit it to shows is utter twaddle, Andy flies his stuff in a perfectly safe environment failure to do so would contravine the ANO, if fact the ANO covers this sort of thing anyway and so your ban is pointless

on a personal note i find someone wishing to restrict somthing they know nothing about really poor 

[Ultymate]

Andy hasn't left the forum he's just cancelled subscribing to this thread methinks

[Phil 9]

> >

> >

> >

Back to jets to say they kind of self regulate due to the cost is true but I dont think you can rely on that always being the case.>>

 >>

But I also agree that a 40 size trainer is a bigger risk due to the fact they are more common and more likely to be flow by an un skilled flyer in an inappropriate place.>>

 >>

In work risk management is worked out in two ways. ie the likelihood of an accident vs the consequences of an accident.  so car travel causes lots of small accidents compared to the rare but bigger accidents seen in air travel

> >

Boddo saw this coming and commented (many years ago) that he hopes small jet turbines would be used only for scale models. I believe he meant to make scale jets closer to the real thing and not used as in the video just to buzz around with at top speed in a sport model.>>

> >

Should they be banned or even regulated heavily I would tend to say no. But the BMFA has a big responsibility to guide their use. My fear is if the law is used to regulate this type of model then it only makes sense that other types of model should be controlled also

> >

The future of the hobby will inevitably change anyway and with parkflyers and electric flight the days of the traditional club look bleak. As it stands clubs play a big roll in ensuring the hobby is conducted in a safe manner. As more go it alone in public areas more control will be enforced on us by people not sympathetic to the hobby. As seen in schools in recent times it is easier to ban an activity that carry’s some risk rather than work out a safer way to conduct it.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Doug Ireland on 10/11/2010 12:59:54:

I certainly hope he hasn't left, that would be a bit petty.

 

I'll bet Timbo wasn't expecting the sort of reaction he got when he chucked his hat in the ring!

 

Interesting thread though

 

Well I knew it would get a lot of exposure - and I am quite happy that it has.  The fact that some people dont agree with me is fine - I never expected they would - especially those who didnt read it correctly

 

PS Andy was - I think - merely stating that we wouldnt be bothering to follow this particular thread - noit the forum entirely.

I'm pretty sure that once he spots my new thread promoting large scale IMAC contests at the Orme ...he will pop his head up again

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 10/11/2010 19:27:31

[Pete B]

I'm pretty sure that once he spots my new thread promoting large scale IMAC contests at the Orme ...he will pop his head up again

 

 

 

 

Pete

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Ooohh,Timbo -  large scale IMAC on the Orme - now that could tempt me!

 

But what about all those pesky glider-guiders and assorted other electric tree huggers - won't they be in the way?

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 10/11/2010 19:31:35

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother on 10/11/2010 19:31:09:

Ooohh,Timbo -  large scale IMAC on the Orme - now that could tempt me!

 

But what about all those pesky glider-guiders and assorted other electric tree huggers - won't they be in the way?

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 10/11/2010 19:31:35

 Thats true - still we can always use them as drones.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 10/11/2010 15:23:12:

people are wandering off topic slightly and starting to mention socialist states etc what it comes down to is the behaviour of us humans and banning this and that serves virtually no purpose it would not take much for me to make either a home made turbine and a plank and go and try to fly it nothing you scream at trying to ban somthing is going to make the smallest difference if the person is stupid enough to do it, most incidents of injuries and fatalities in this hobby have nothing to do with the performance of the aircraft 90% of the time its shear bad luck saying that there is a time and a place for this type of performance is fine but to limit it to shows is utter twaddle, Andy flies his stuff in a perfectly safe environment failure to do so would contravine the ANO, if fact the ANO covers this sort of thing anyway and so your ban is pointless

on a personal note i find someone wishing to restrict somthing they know nothing about really poor 

 

Utter twaddle Lee? - thats a tad churlish mate.

 

People do get awfully heated and aggressive over things expressed by others when they dont subscribe to their own point of view dont they! 

 

A few posts back I said the following...

 

"There were enough suggestions (and lack of clear detail to prove otherwise) that this flight was perhaps not made in the safest of conditions or surroundings.

Now if thats not the case - fair enough - and as I have stated several times I apologize to the two guys involved.  However, it still provided the impetus for the discussion, and the statement by me that inappropriate operation of these things will attract bad press and trouble for us modellers" - more so than your average club model IMO.

I may well have used a dramatic and provocative title - so what? - the content of the post was clear - we shouldnt condone uncontrolled operation of these things"

 

Now which bit of that statement cause you so much trouble?

 

Now even if I stated earlier that perhaps they should be restricted to properly organised and controlled shows - again - so what?

Am I not entiled to express a view - just because its not your view?  Reading and trying to strike a balance in moderating literally hundreds of thousands of posts, I very often read views of others that dont conform to mine - I may well even respond to them - but I would never accuse someone of talking utter twaddle just because I didnt agree with them - not here on the forum at least.

 

Re your last comment - who exactly are you referring to?

...  a person trying to restrictt something they know nothing about?

[Spice Cat]

It still all comes down to how you ban it? Who would police it?

I believe many activities are banned; dog fighting, fox hunting, fishing with dynamite but still go on sometimes quite openly. Practically; it would be impossible and besides, the second you tell people no, many feel the need to have a go.

Oh well.

[kiwi g]

Theres no way your going to stop bad flying habits. You can teach and train all you like but at the end of the day theres always someone who wont go with regulations.

A good example of this is a club not far from here.

They use a aerodrome . take off besides a runway and then turn and fly over the sea. they must have a spotter besides them all the time and be a member of the club.

NOW this day one of the members was flying by himself with spectators asking all the normal questions. Showing off he flew over the runway area ( Aerobatics of course)

 

At the end of the runway there was a full size plane reading to take off and one on approach. Both had to wait till the modeller finished and landed.

The club has now had serious letters written by civil aviationand may have to go elsewhere because of one stupid idiot.

Not to mention the potenial for a serious accident.

 

Point being you cannot control something if your not there to police it and someone will always take it too far.

 

I would like to be at some of your fields this weekend discussing this topic.

[Brian Cooper]

If someone has got the space, the pocket money and the talent to fly these things, then why not?

 

I have been in this hobby for more than 50 years and in all that time I have witnessed a preponderance of “put-down” attitude which judges all other flyers by a critic’s own lack of talent. 

This lack of talent then manifests itself into a short-sighted state of mind which says that if the critic can’t do it -- whatever "it" is -- then it must be “dangerous.” . . . especially if it's a young(er) pilot doing "it".

 

People get stuck in their ways and have difficulty embracing anything new or challenging.  Believe me, there are many modellers out there whose aspirations extend beyond plodding round the sky with an underpowered Junior 60 --- and expecting everyone else to be pleased to do the same.

 

Many years ago I even heard a vociferous old twit moaning about someone flying a model with ailerons and a glow engine …!! At least the game has moved on a bit since those days ..... or has it?

 

B.C.

 

Edited By Brian Cooper on 11/11/2010 10:17:01

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I've been reading the contributions to this thread with interest. Its weaved about a fair bit and its had more than it share of heated comment.

 

Personally I have no problem with this guy flying his very fast jet. I don't agree with the comments on the engineering/craftsmanship. The model, the lauching ramp and the pre-flight proceedures seemed (on the limited evidence of the video) OK to me. I'm satisfied this guy knows what he is doing as regards the model. But...there are other areas of his judgement which  I think are more questionable.

 

Firstly, the proximity of those power pylons. It is questionable whether it was wise to fly such a fast model so near them. Its difficult to be sure - videos can be misleading - but they looked too close for such a fast model to me and I am sure they would to others. Whether he flew through them or not is not my concern - its just the fact they are there.

 

Second the wisdom of mounting of a video showing the flying of the model so close to the pylons on just about the most public platform available in the world was, in my view, questionable.

 

David and others make the case for personal liberty - I have have great sympathy. But with freedoms go responsibilities. It is not, in my view, acceptable to say "I have the freedom to do this, the responsibily is all mine, I act in isolation" because the consequences may very well not be in isolation. A video like this draws attention to aspects we would rather attention was not drawn to. IF, as many fear, the "fun police" do get on our case could it not be that this sort of display is just more ammunition in their argument. They could use this sort of thing against us.

 

By all means this guy must be free to fly his model - more power to his elbow I say. But I feel he should give a little more thought to the wider implications of his actions, He perhaps should consider slececting a less contraversial venue, especially if he intends to put his exploits on such a widely available public platform.

 

Guys like him are in the vangaurd of our hobby. They push the outside of the envelop, and that's good. But they must be seen to be "whiter than white" if we not all to suffer the fate some fear so much.

 

In short - I agree with Tim's substantive point.

 

BEB.

 

PS I have choosen my words with great care here - if anyone is tempted to "fire one off" please bear in mind these are my views - which I perfectly entitled to - and I believe they have been very moderately expressed. All I've done is point out that there are issues in this video which can be considered questionable. Someone less well disposed to our hobby may well express their views on this much more forthrightly!

 

 

[Lee Smalley]

Firstly its twaddle because how do you expect people to be able to display at shows if they can't practice in private, thats why its twaddle, the argument falls down because you have put no thought into it! if the flying of jets was limited to displays then you would have oversubscribed shows where each pilot would get hardly any air time, show pilots already get very little air time anyway and now you want every jet modeller to only fly at displays and organized events, it makes me laugh!  go to the orme and see people doing far more dangerous things everyday, how about comming through the back of the slope with a big scale glider without saying a word to anyone, they do it all the time! thats far more dangerous than Andy flying his jets at our patch,

i find that anyone trying to ban anything they do not fully understand is poor, i do not support fox hunting but i dont ask to ban it as i do not know enough about it, you know very little about jets (as do I) and as such you may not support it but i find that you are asking to restrict it very hard to swallow, you are perfectly intitalled to your opinion as is everyone, its just your method of expressing it i find poor, you should take a note from BEB

 

BEB whilst i may not agree with you mate i have to applaud your method   

[Lee Smalley]

anyway i think i have said enough !

[Erfolg]

I personally did find the video a little disturbing, yet do not like imposed restrictions as they are invariably draconian (never heard of the word until Startek).

 

Having had an offer for a cheap Wren unit a little while back, it did make think, yes, some one with even less sense than my self will buy one. That is one day. Their gear, could also be in poor condition. They may have no sense of responsibility. As there is always someone.

 

Perhaps a way of influencing behaviour, would be to take the operation of Gas Turbines into a separate category of BMFA insurance, with clearly stated restrictions for there operation. Not with the objective imposing additional constraints on the legal regulations, rather an interpretation with how these regulation can be complied with.

 

A number of people have stated how UK regulations would have been transgressed if the model had been operated in the UK. Yet it is possible that other countries it would not be an issue. So may be a statement of our individual responsibilities to the modelling movement as part of the insurance would help. Along the lines that operating right up to the letter of the law, could result in the line being adversely moved.

[John Muir]

Lee I don't think you have to actively participate in an activity to either understand it or be allowed an opinion on it. I've never taken part in genocide, bull fighting or game shows, but I'm still pretty sure they should be banned .

 

I've been trying to think of a way to express my opinion on here without getting anybody annoyed for a while, but I think BEB just did it for me. Nicely said.

 

I'd just add that don't see why large (read heavy) models should have to be regulated by the CAA, but fast models, which can carry a lot more energy, cover more sky and take greater pilot skill to control, get away with it. Surely the risks are similar?

 

Also the idea that they are self-policing because they are expensive, so not everybody can have one, is just ludicrous. I've known plenty of complete idiots over the years who have had loads of money. Ditto the argument that the people who are suggesting regulation are just jealous because they don't have the skill to fly one. The world is full of people who think they have the skill to do something, until they find out they don't, usually to someone else's cost.

[Lee Smalley]

John I never said you can not have an opinion did I, i just believe you should not be asking to ban anything unless you know fully about what you are trying to ban, please read my response properly mate you can paint me in a bad light otherwise!!!

[Lee Smalley]

Fun Jet ultras can reach 150mph gliders even more where do you wanna stop 

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 11/11/2010 11:24:30:

 

BEB whilst i may not agree with you mate i have to applaud your method   

 

 

Honed over years of diplomacy mate!

 

BEB

[Pete B]

Let me firstly say, as I alluded to in an earlier post, that I have the greatest respect in people's ability to develop and fly such machines and I am all for pushing the bounds of model flying. I'm not looking to restrict development or progress but in line with that increase in performance must come a recognition of the increasing dangers of pushing the boundaries.

I think the power lines are a bit of a red herring in the video. They have blurred the real issue which is whether use of models of such exceptional performance is really suitable outside the confines of airfields, ranges or other vast open, unpopulated spaces, where the risk to third parties is at a minimum.   

I see the title 'I say ban 'em!' as being intended to convey a rather 'mock-serious' grumpy heading, perhaps as seen through the eyes of those outside the hobby, whose purpose in life is to regulate the activities of others. At no time in this thread has Timbo expressed any suggestion as to the idea that jets should be banned. Where did some folk get that idea?

 

Certain people who have made responses in this thread have, IMHO, chosen to interpret comments in a way that suits them, rather than the way in which the comments seem to have been intended. They also seem to be ignoring, intentionally or otherwise, the fundamental question which was asked in the original post.

I really do feel that those who are shooting the OP down should look at the wider picture - and the message they are conveying. Are they really so irresponsible as to suggest that anything should go, anytime, anywhere? If they don't believe that, why not say so?

Not one response from them has offered anything constructive, nor have they shown any degree of responsibility in thinking through the consequences of unrestricted development and use of such machines. At least one of them is considered influential and respected in the modelling world and I am, to say the least, disappointed that he has chosen to bury his head in the sand by ignoring the question originally posed.

I sincerely hope this issue is exercising the minds of those organisations which represent model flyers because, if it isn't, there will a lot of hand-wringing when it all goes pear-shaped..............

 

Pete

[Lee Smalley]

"At no time in this thread has Timbo expressed any suggestion as to the idea that jets should be banned. Where did some folk get that idea?

 

 

 

Hmmmmm, i wonder!!!!