Multi faceted question.

[Spice Cat]

Gents & Ladies,

I have seen a few engine guru's who say not to use an electric starter. Is this correct?? As with either a chicken stick or finger, I don't seem to have much success starting.

 

Next question.

I am considering upgrading my current cheapy geared starter to a Sullivan Dynatron. I have a 1.20 four stroke to turn over.

Anyone have any views on these.

 

Question three (Starter for ten, no conferring)

What is the best method for starting a in IC engine either 2 or 4 stroke. I have seen some varying practices in use and used the alishanmao method (look him up on You Tube) for starting a two stroke to great effect but the four seems a bit of a hassle.

 

Your thoughts please.

 

PS Timbo; get some sleep.

[Lindsay Todd]

Spice cat re starting engines with starters, the most common problem is a hydraulic lock by flooding the cylinder, the starter motor forces the crank to rotate still and damages internal components. To be honest it seems pretty rare but can and does happen. I recall some years ago a Webra speed 60 2 stroke shearing the crank as a result, the damage to forstrokes could be quite severe. Its always good practice to flick the prop over a few times by hand before using a starter. The higher torque the starter potentially the higher the risk of causing damage. Do I use one - yes.

In terms of starting engines, much is down to carb set up, tank position a good general installation and correct choice of glow plug. To many times people starting fiddling with the needles, I would suggest most problems relate to glow plug and fuel supply when an engine fails to fire in each instance always set up and refer to manufacturers instructions first. Four strokes should not present any concerns, they require a little more maintenance but basic set up principles are the same.

Linds

[Bravedan]

A1.

 

Used Electric starting for 38 years, fixed wing, cars, boats and in the last three years Helicopters.  Still using engines from the 70's and 80's.

 

Still have and use my original Hi Tork starter, but have collected others along the way.

 

NEVER had ANY issue with any engine doing so, NO sign of reduced engine life, NEVER any engine damage.

 

A2.

Recently bought a Dynatron as I had a very highly tuned 91 in a Helicopter which refused to turn over with the three differing other starters I own, esp the Irvine which carries the screwed on start wand (and is perfectly OK with my 50's) .  Well actually, I bought a geared JP first, which was rubbish and not even worth it's cheap price.

 

Not at ALL impressed by the Dynatron, sure it's quite powerful, but only really when on 24v. I don't expect something that dear to have bad sharp flash on parts, poor thread, very short leads, no release flats on shaft, etc. However, is there an alternative in the high power bracket?  If there is, and I tried others my club mates had, I have not found it!

 

A3.

 

Extremely rarely have any starting issues, 2St, 4St, glow or petrol..........I always prime spin without glowplug (with ignition kill on for petrol). They then most times start first true try. Don't have time or interest to search/scan YouTube, If you want assistance, I suggest you please make a bit of effort to explain what you are doing for the 4 St and we'll probably be able to help.

 

 

Edited By Bravedan on 05/12/2010 06:05:27

[Stephen Grigg]

Hi Spice Cat,Ive picked up a few tips on IC in the last  couple of years.I always use an ordinary starter.I find the starting depends on the model.My Harmon Rocket always needs a good prime first,,so builds itself up.My Pulse used to flood when  filling so had to tip fuel away before starting,Never had problems with 4 strokes unless a pipe is kinked or something, My little Mamselle likes furl down the carb then starts immediately.The easier to get to the engine and prime an engine the easier to start.

[Simon K 3]

A1, No reason why you shouldn't use an electric starter. - Though this is pretty subjective, as long as you watch for the hydrolyic lock, already mentioned.

 

A2, You don't say what your "Cheapie geared starter" was...

Before I made the switch to All-Electric, I ran an OS 160 and YS110 motors and had no problems with a Kavan Planetary Starter.

Just make sure you've got a clean good quality glow plug, a fully charged starter battery and a starter rubber which is in a good state and finally ensure you've got a good glow ignitor battery.

 

 Never owned a chicken stick as I thought in the event of a kick I may not get it out of the way in time.... that said the one day I forgot my starter, I elected to flick start without a glove.... you guessed it, it kicked and I spent the next two hours in casaulty having turned to remove the end of my finger.

 

A3. Everyone has their own ways that work for them; but prime without glow, few extra turns after primed, attach glow and use starter.

Edited By Simon K 3 on 05/12/2010 08:08:19

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Spice Cat on 05/12/2010 00:17:27:

Gents & Ladies,

I have seen a few engine guru's who say not to use an electric starter. Is this correct?? As with either a chicken stick or finger, I don't seem to have much success starting.

 

Next question.

I am considering upgrading my current cheapy geared starter to a Sullivan Dynatron. I have a 1.20 four stroke to turn over.

Anyone have any views on these.

 

Question three (Starter for ten, no conferring)

What is the best method for starting a in IC engine either 2 or 4 stroke. I have seen some varying practices in use and used the alishanmao method (look him up on You Tube) for starting a two stroke to great effect but the four seems a bit of a hassle.

 

Your thoughts please.

 

PS Timbo; get some sleep.

 

ZZZZZZZ

[Peter Miller]

I hand started engines from 1954 to about 1995. Then I went over to a starter mounted in the box for safety reasons.

 

Some thoughts, Hand starting is a knack, especially for diesels. Once you develop the flick it is easy.

 

Never be afraid of an engine, they are more likely to bite a hesitant finger than one that is moving fast and confidently.

 

Always, ALWAYS sandpaper the moulding flash off the edges of a propeller. I am prepared to bet that the one that  took bits off your finger still had the flash on it. You can actually carve balsa with a Master Airscrew.

 

The person whose starter failed and asked me to flick his unsanded prop got an earful when I sliced my finger.

 

On plain bearing engines make sure that there is a steel washer between theprop driver and front of the crankcase. Two aluminium surafces rubbing together when the starater is applied is not a good idea.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

A1 - I always use an electric starter - never had a problem. You just have to apply a little intellegence. If it might be flooding - back off. Don't just flog and flog a reluctant engine - figure out why its reluctant.

 

A2 - I use a Sullivan - good starter.

 

A3 - Depends if the engine is cold. If it is then spin it over with the starter (20 turns or so) without the glow - just to get the juices flowing! Connect the glow and it will usually start almost immediately. If its warm, or if it run in the last 30mins or so, I skip the no-glow priming and go straight for a start.

 

I agree with Lyndsay - most engines that are reluctant to start - assuming they have run OK - are usually no fuel getting through or worn plug.

 

BEB

[Adrian Smith 1]

Hi SpiceCat,

 

I have a Dynatron starter that I use on the bigger engines ie. OS 200 FS or 160FX  as I find on a really cold day (I fly on frosty mornings when there is little wind) as sometimes they are a little shy of turning over. After the first firing then they turn over fine for the rest of the session.

 

Two items of WARNING though. I hitched the starter up to a 24v power source in cold weather (joining two 12v batteries) to get the required omph but you must make sure the starter cup is centred on the spinner properly or said prop and starter tend to bite back, causing the shaft of the starter to bend. This renders the starter useless after that.

 

Furthermore the thread the cup sits on is pathetically short and as a result can fly off in certain circumstances if an engine kicks back (don't ask me why I know!) . You MUST, REPEAT MUST wear a decent pair of safety glasses for obvious reasons. 

[Spice Cat]

Thanks chaps; Timbo go back to sleep.

 

[Peter Beeney]

   I too have used a starter for a very long time now, and, like other pilots, have never had any adverse results. At least, that I’ve noticed, anyway. Also, like others, to ensure success, I like to keep all the batteries right up to scratch, particularly in the cold weather. With no bits of thin wire in circuit to cause any severe volt drops. But, everyone has different ideas, and one or two my older friends still insist on flicking the prop. I’ve also noticed, over the years, that, given half a chance, that props do bite, sometimes very severely, in the blink of an eye; the scars can sometimes be a prominent evidence. I always keep a couple of the thick rubber ‘chicken finger’ protectors to hand, for that odd time I’m tempted to hand start, they are showing real signs of being chewed by the backs of propellors, would my fingers have been any tougher?

   Hopefully, this is not too far off thread, but a little piece of advice I would give myself is to make sure the prop nut is wound up tight, more tight and then a final graunch tight. A good starter, together with a reasonable sized 12V, in a good state of charge, can be very exuberant, occasionally the prop and spinner can be spun off the engine crankshaft quite vigourously. When the engine is running, the right-handed thread turns into the nut, and so is unlikely to come loose, but the starter unwinds it. I’ve seen this happen at various sites and clubs, probably not that often, but on a steady basis, so I can’t really believe that it only happens to us. Beginners are particularly vulnerable, understandably. Recently it happened at the strip, a starter whizzed a 12 by 6 APC off a 60, this had actually been on the engine for quite a while, it flew straight up in the air, it seemed to take quite a long time, then came straight down and went vertically right through the wing of the model next door, and stuck really well into the ground! The wing bit was easy, but the ground was pretty hard at the time!
   It was the wing of my model! Luckily I was at the other end of the pits at the time.

   I’ve never seen anyone actually hit or hurt by one of these, but this can only be down to good luck and good fortune, and there may well be a first time for everything.

   Maybe this could be one reason for not using a starter!

   PB                         

                                                                           

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Peter's point on prop loosening is particularly important for 4 strokes. Backfires can easily kick a prop loose - lock nut or no lock nut! Ask me how I know this

 

BEB

[Spice Cat]

Thanks again chaps. I don't quite believe all this talk about losing a prop nut, after all, it'll never happened to me............. ahem.

 

[Phil Claridge]

its not yet happened to you

[Peter Beeney]

   BEB, yes indeed, I’ve tried to make this point before about 4 stokes, I’ve not particularly seen the backfire problem, the issue I tend to think about is detonation. This is when the prop can fly off when the engine is running. So, of course, the golden rule is not to stand in front of it. Or any running engine, ever, come to that.
   Detonation, in terms of model engines anyway, causes the piston to stop dead in it tracks, this happens at high volumetric efficiency, which is just a fancy way of saying it’s running flat out, so the energy in the revving prop just keeps it going, sometimes off the engine and into anything that’s in front of it, at high speed.
   My version of detonation is that it it can be caused by a number of reasons, the shape of the combustion chamber, the mixture, the type of fuel, the compression ratio, ignition timing etc. We cannot easily change most of these aspects here, but we can, (and do!), change the fuel/air mixture.
   If the engine is at full rev and we lean the mixture a little further the engine runs a little bit hotter and goes a little bit faster. The hotter gasses are expanding a little bit more. The timing automatically advances, it’s completely self-timing, fortunately, and the flame front in the combustion chamber moves slightly quicker toward the swiftly rising piston. If the mixture gets weak enough, then at some point the speed of this faster moving flame front is sufficient to cause an even more rapid rise in pressure, enough to cause a secondary spontaneous ignition point on the top of the piston. Now we have two flame fronts in opposition, about to collide with each other, one being pushed fairly convincingly from behind. When they do meet, well before the normal firing point, the piston hits a solid lump of fully expanded gas and thus decides it just doesn’t want to go any further; in about three fifths of half a nano-second! So it stops!
   The net result is mostly that the engine just come to a quick standstill, but the prop can take the prop nut together with the lock nut off, rapeedo, I’ve seen that happen. We are safety conscious, so no one was in front. It really is pretty impressive! On another example, in the air, the prop stayed put, but the cylinder left the crankcase. In a hurry, and in pieces. That was an original OS 40 FS, and it had seen a fair bit of running.

   There are a few angle to this, of course, for instance, the wedge shaped cylinder head of a Laser prevents this. I think I’m right in saying it’s not happened to one of these.

   Starters can unwind prop nut, fer sure, and detonation can definitely silence a four-stroke in double quick time!

   Humble apologies if this has wandered off thread, but it all seems to appertain to using engines, at least.

   PB                     

                                                     

[Peter Miller]

Many, many years ago a Saito 30 threw a prop when running (backfire) The prop hit the owner's hand from over a foot away and well after it had left the engine.

 

It took four stitches to sew up the vein and another five to sew up the outer gash.

 

It is good policy to retighten props after a time, especially wooden ones as they can compress slightly

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

I think that he best way is to use electric starter , of course requires a practice and knowledge of IC engines .I started using electric starter ,when I was young ,in a very demanding FF class ,and I had a good teacher who taught  me right . 

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

I would concur with all the above postings....yes a hydraulic lock is possible but I've never seen or suffered one.

 

I use a Sulivan starter...must be nearly 30 years old now...& this swings all my motors up to a 90 2 stroke into life quite happily....

 

Throwing a prop is rare but certainly can happen......a 4 stroke being started in the pits at my club threw its prop about 25 feet & hit a member behind the left ear....lots of blood & cursing but no lasting damage thanfully......amazingly the motor was a 30 size & the prop was a 9x6. This event resulted in a rule change to make sure we all started our models with them pointing away from the main pits.....

 

Part of the problem often is that the prop nut is not tightened sufficiently.....often beginners are not sure how much force to apply to the prop nut & under-tighten them....use a spanner of the correct size & lean on it fairly hard would be my advise... (what is "fairly hard"...?......ah...only experience can tell you that Grasshopper!!)