Dennis Ainsworth Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Hi Shaun, didnt know that they were not joined yet, assumed that they had been, still, the rest of what I said still goes really about getting the join better but from what you are now saying it is saying more that they are a very bad pair of wings. Really you cant do much about the differences in the thickness of the wing roots, have had that myself donkys years ago in the early days of foam wings, afraid its something that you will have to live with, when you have them joined and glassed in the centre I dont think you will notice the difference so much, the important thing is to get the underside of the wings on the same level, this is more or less in your case for ease of fitting to the fuselage so that they are level, but more to it than that but not for you to worry about now. There should be some mention on the plans of the dihedral in inches as a rule, have seen it on poorer plans as just a little template with an angle that you can cut out of card or a scrap of balsa. I have come accross those strips usually of thin ply for the centre, does make a neat job but in your case you wont be able to use it because of the poorly manufacture of the wings and the step you have there, just put that in the scrap box for a later day and use the bandage which can be either fibreglass tape or cloth or even a medical bandage, used to be a debate years ago whether or not we were using an elephant to crack a nut with glass cloth and fibreglass resin, I have used in the past ordinary medical bandage and PVA glue and found it quite adequate, actually in the worst of write offs I have never seen a break on the join, always either side it, so that might prove a point somewhere. Like I say, dont worry about the top surface, its the bottom in your case that matters. As regards the r/c gear and the receiver, dont for heavens sake go mad on the cost of one, consider Micron gear, he does a good few of them at the right price and he will put you right as he is one of the few who will talk to you man to man, you can either make your own or they come ready made and they are good reliable gear, my first proportional r/c gear was one of his way back in 1972 and I built it myself and it was good. What you want at the moment is something like a Futaba Skysport 4 or 6 transmitter, it will last you for years and wont break the bank, I have among my trannys a Skysport 4 which cost me the amazing sum of £34 including ni-cads, brand new in box from a dealer, not s/h. Just keep asking Shaun, we all had to start somewhere and ask someone, why not make a list of the things you are uncertain about, what about a book, Dave Boddington does a very good one and will I think keep you on the straight and narrow and answer most posers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 I think a book is a great idea. I will have a look for the book you suggest. Even though Im fairly new to this hobby (about a year or so)..i love it ! I have been fairly restricted by cash but a bit of a payrise recently has helped matters. Im a computer engineer and work in very stressful enviroments...so its lovely to come home and be able to tinker with planes, engines etc after sitting at desks all day. Its a hobby I intend to stick with despite the setbacks...not just with this but with the electrics I smashed to pieces over the last year..everytime I wrote one off I learned something new ! So bearing that in mind I dont mind splashing out a bit on the decent kit if it does a good job and will last a few years (despite buying this dud trainer). I really want to see it fly now and hopefully it will teach me a lot before I can go buy and build that dream scale model. I do appreciate all on here who have helped and expect more questions to come ! Whats great about here is that you get different opinions from different people with different expeiriences...something you dont get from the 'bloke in the shop'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Only just looked at this post - the mere thought of wobbly artfcumdontknowhowtodoitanyotherway plastic snakes just makes me cringe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Ainsworth Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hi Shaun, just been looking back at your old threads on this model and I spotted you mentioned ailerons on it, in that case you probably wont find any reference to dihedral on the plans and even though its a trainer you shouldnt need it and usually the wings are flat but it is sometimes better on a non scale model to have a very slight bit of dihedral, say about an 1" total, this is not for stability, its just that they look better with just a bit especially if they are the same thickness all along, Doric columns etc outside of large buildings dont have straight sides as they taper, they are bellied out about 2/3 the way up, this gives the optical illusion that the sides are straight.By the way, regarding elastic bands, I always us the correct ones for models which are white and the best thing to keep them in is Cornflour, pop them in a plastic bag after use with the Cornflour, give a shake and next time you use them give them a flip when you get them out and they will be as good as new, best way to store new ones as well, they will last for years, or it seems like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Ive just ordered Dave Baoddington's book....so you all might get some peace and quiet for a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Claridge Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 hi shaun i see you hail from emsworth there is agood model flying club just up the road from you called chichester and district model aircraft club cadmac for short we are all very friendly and willing to help newcomers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hi Phil...Im actually coming next Thursday. I was supposed to attend last month but broke my foot a few days before the meet. I was going to ask if anybody on this forum attended the CADMAC meets? I have emailed one of the guys regarding joining. Im looking forward to going (so I can give Timbo's typing finger a rest ). I was originally told about the club by another chap in Emsworth...cant remember his name but he saw me getting out my van with a collection of electric foamies in my arms and he came over to chat. I will look for you next Thursday...im the handsome one with a limp.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Going back to control rods....afterall I think this particular thread started with that subject ...I been doing a bit more work on the trainer tonight...the control rods at the servo end have no threads or connectors on of any sort. Do I simply obtain some clevis clips and glue them on ??? Sounds iffy but cant see how else to do it. The wire is far to thick for Z bends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 You need special adaptors which have a socket on on ened, and are threade for a clevis on the other...forget the proper name, but these could then be soldered /epoxied onto you rods. will post a picture if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 That would be useful Timbo..would help me know what to ask for. Some model shops (not all) can be a little bit imtimidating and sometimes a little reluctant to help. A quickie regarding engine mounts...my irvine 40 doesnt fit on the mount built in to this trainer without pushing the prongs apart slighty. It says on the mount that it is size 35-45. I assume (silly question) that the size on mount does relate to the engine size? I have seen an Irvine size 40 engine mount on the web so Im assuming I need to by this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslan Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 The dihedral thing is for stability and most trainers wiill have dihedral.These rules apply to full size planes also.There are also zero dihedral and anhedral wings.I'm no aeronautics engineer,but each case is there for a specific reason and is vital to the flight characteristics of any plane,from fighter to transport lads.It's got to do with the roll axis.Zero dihedral=less stability and so more manouverability for fighters,aerobats etc.In fact I think most people carriers have dihedral on the mainwing and the tailplane.Anyway this might be better left for another day Shaun.If the brace is V shaped and the root ribs are angled,this is to give the wing a dihedral.Sorry Timbo,you've already explained it,but I feel Dennis has it wrong so I thought I'd elaborate a bit........(see what happens)P.S.you could use an l bend and keeper on servo end.should be cheaper . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Shaun, please do not ever try to glue a clevis of any type to a metal rod unless you know a lot about types of adhesive and suitable etching fluids. I would go with the solder bucket adaptor. Most control rods are about 1/16" dia. made of very soft steel and can be Z bent with a strong pair of long nosed pliers. If you wish to solder steel, as I do, use Telux flux from a hardware store-do not rely on flux cored solder for this type of job. It is too important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 I did think gluing may be a bit iffy as I said in previous post. The wire really is thick and I cant see it passing through the hole in the servo arm..(servo's on order so thats not a foregone conclusion). This kit was supposed to be a ARTF so im a bit miffed that parts are not included like that. Aslan: Thanks for the additional info on dihedral..my plans dont mention it and the wings, when in postion are relatively flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Ainsworth Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Sorry Aslan aint got it wrong, I was just keeping it simple for Shaun as he is trying to consume a great ammount of info at the moment and the easiest explanation will at this stage be O.K for him, he doesnt need to clutter his mind up with aerodynamics at the moment, could write a few pages about the dihedral stuff etc but who cares at the moment, as long as he gets it to fly he will be happy I guess, only trying to be helpful. But there again the statement that all trainers have dihedral aint strictly true, 3 channel models do but when you go to 4 it is drastically reduced and as you know 4 channel models have to be flown all the time as the stability has more or less gone, try flying a 4 channel scale model and put the tranny down on the ground and see how long it stays up!!!. (opening a can of worms comes to mind). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Most of today`s so called trainers seem way overpowered, fly like missiles and are a compromise re dihedral to keep them stable, or lack of to make the ailerons work. It does make a novice fairly competent by the time they reach their A test though. I would recommend something like a Limbo Dancer or a Cougar, with greatly reduced throws, since they are very forgiving and easy to fly, and do not have that silly, weak, noseleg which `trainer` manufacturers insist on fitting. Of course there is always the sensible Super 60????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslan Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hold on there a moment Dennis.I genuinely thought you had it wrong when you said dihedral had no use,and was only there to look good.Its great that we are all throwing our bits in and helping Shaun out.So I'm thinking....this lad might be interested to know that dihedral is important,not trying to clutter his mind with aerodynamics at all,he asked about dihedral....jeesh....."The dihedral thing is for stability and most trainers wiill have dihedral." is what I said.I thought I kept the explanation on dihedral nice and simple for Shaun.If you're trying to wind me up it worked.(don't get the 3/4 channel thing and the connection with dihedral or the can of worms thing/unless it has opened and you're way ahead of me)Think we should drop this and get on with giving Shaun a dig out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Ainsworth Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Aslan, good idea mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thank you chaps. I dont want to appear like Im being lazy and asking every little question that comes along...but there really is very little info out there and talking to expeirienced guys like yourselves can save a lot of time and money. Normally Im a trial and error man but this is a fairly costly hobby so be nice to get it right from day one. I took the advice earlier and have ordered a book (David Beaumont) and am looking forward to my first club meet next week. Im more confident about getting the thing together now after all the fantastic advice from everbody on here and hope to have a lot done by the weekend. Im working close to a very good model shop (Sussex Model Centre) tomorrow so will pick up the supplies to get it sorted. Still a bit unsure about the control rod thing but I will see what they have in the shop. My father in law works in the fibre glass business and he is going to give me something to cover the wing joint rather than use the bit of iron on tape that came with the kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Shaun, back to your engine mount. If the rear end fits then it is normal for the front to have to be bent out slightly but you should not have to force the motor in such that the front end then splays outwards. If this is so, then get a different mount or relieve the rear end a bit The motor should sit parallel without too much stress on the mount. I normally use No.6 self tappers on a nylon mount, which will require drilling to 3mm. Good idea about the glass tape. 2-3" wide should be about right but ensure that you use epoxy rather than polyester resin cos the latter will disolve the foam underneath unless it is fast setting. Use the minimum possible ammount of resin. If the wing is already covered you will need to remove some covering around the centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 The front does splay outwards a fair bit when the motor is pushed in place and I do have to use a fair bit of force. When I let go of the motor it does 'spring' back up. I wasnt sure wether to use self tappers or drill all the way through and use nut n bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Shaun, you need a larger mount. Nuts and bolts will probably vibrate off on the first flight with this type of mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thanks Martin. Have found an Irvine Size 40 engine mount on Ripmax website...its only a few quid so will order it...mind you with the post being on strike I may get it before Christmas! Maybe an obvious question but where the mount says "size 40" I assume that means it is for a size 40 engine? Just that my mount says "size 35-45" and my engine still doesnt fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 This is what i think you are looking for, sometimes called a solder adaptor, or clevis adaptor.I have in the past epoxied these onto the steel pushrods, by roughing the rod up with a file to key, and then ensuring both parts are REALLY clean ( bit of isopropyl alchohol or similar ) then completley dry before using a slow set good quality epoxy.Never had one let go If you can get the rod really clean, and are compertent at silver soldering or similar, then soldering is definately a better method. Alternatively you could just get a threaded pushrod, bind it to the existing plain ended rod, and then solder it together, or bind and glue well, finishing with a heatshrink.PS - yes a "40" size mount should take a 40 size motor, but not all of them fit !! Typical in the modelling world I am afraid. Best to take your engine into the shop, and check the fit. It should NOT splay out as the engine is fitted into it, and use self tapper screws to fit the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Yeah, 40 does mean this size of motor but there are lots of variations between manufacturers. Best to measure your motor or take it with you to the model shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Clarke Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Cheers Timbo. I assume you then then just screw on the clevis, adjust and connect to the Servo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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