Be honest, do you set the fail safe?

[Keith Simmons]

I too use a fail safe, and set the throttle to idle. I myself would not have any aileron, half or a quarter as the model will still keep rolling and can enter into a spiral dive. it happened to me on a test

[Olly P]

Keith, I know my glider in question would otherwise glide for several miles if I'm at full height....as our club is with a mile of the m60 that would be a bad place for a 1.8m foamy to land!

[Keith Simmons]

Oh, a glider, That's different, your model may catch a thermal during a run away. . easily add noughts to your miles. and good luck that you may never have it happen for real.   Can you have airbrakes that deploy on failsafe? (Or crow flaps I think?)

Edited By Keith Simmons on 13/02/2012 15:07:00

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Posted by Olly P on 13/02/2012 14:51:52:

Keith, I know my glider in question would otherwise glide for several miles if I'm at full height....as our club is with a mile of the m60 that would be a bad place for a 1.8m foamy to land!

 

Indeed...with the traffic on the M60 as it is it might take many hours before you could reach the model & retrieve it....more if the Trafford Centre is busy....

[Andy Mc]

I was aware that my 2.4gig Tx had a failsafe and always bound the model with the throttle at minimum and controls set neutral.

However, after reading through this thread I'm now a lot wiser. I'll now re-bind after the initial set-up, and again after the maiden flight when the model has been trimmed. I'll admit to not knowing all the ins and outs, but feel a little more educated on the subject.

[DizzyDuck]

as stated b4 i believe tha CAP is just that a VOLUNTARY code of practice. But do you want to cause an incident not having complied with the relevant sections? I know i wouldn't want to.

 

From page17 BMFA handbook

"Whilst the recommendations in CAP 658 are not regarded as legal requirements, one of the reasons why it is issued by the CAA is to provide a guide to what would be considered ‘reasonable practice’ in the event of a model flyer being prosecuted by them under the Air Navigation Order."

 

my 6ex transmitter comes with failsafe enabled..so if you dont know your t tx operation, how's it been left, fully on for throttle maybe ?

 

I fly mainly electric but check the fs EVERY flight as part of my preflight checks. it takes 2 seconds...I cant belive the number of people still not operating or checking their fs.

[Erfolg]

I personally believe to facilitate discussion from an informed position, the opening exchanges should have started with an extract from the relevant regulations or legislation. In this case,an additional note on the interpretation of the BMFA of how compliance can be demonstrated.

 

No discussion should start with, "whatever is a requirement." It is not helpful, it is condescending, it has no respect that we all have a free will in these matters not being employees, receiving a management instruction.

 

On a positive note, I find it reassuring, in fact confirms my prejudice, that common sense dictates that the vast majority either set the Fail-safe or know that the fail-save is enabled as a automatic function. Looking at the poll to date indicates circa 80% have their fail-safe enabled. Of the remaining 20% it would appear that approx 10% have no fail-safe option. I think it was 6% who did not when available and only 4% felt there was no need.

 

Being negative, I have only seen one model fly away in about 12 years of active modelling. How many models are actually saved by a fail-safe is debatable. I guess that some makes of Tx/Rx combinations do record the loss of signal, does it tell you an incident was potentially avoided, as the number of crashes with 2.4 seems stubbonly similar to 35 or even 27.

 

Of course it makes sense to use the facility, as it seems we all essentially do, although I am doubtfull if the benefit is significant, in its effects.

 

[Ian Jones]

If the failsafe is an automatic function, does the pilot actually know what it's set to do?

 

Many default failsafe settings are last position hold - is that okay?

Edited By Ian Jones on 13/02/2012 17:44:20

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Ian Jones on 13/02/2012 17:40:52:

If the failsafe is an automatic function, does the pilot actually know what it's set to do?

 

Many default failsafe settings are last position hold - is that okay?

Edited By Ian Jones on 13/02/2012 17:44:20

No its not okay, the throttle has to be to idle or off, other channels it is a matter of personal choice.

 

Failsafes should be checked as part of your pre flight checks.

Edited By Andy Symons on 13/02/2012 18:14:45

[Derek Stevenson]

If the receiver has a fail safe facility I always set it. For my peace of mind, the safety of others and hopefully to limit damage to the plane. Thankfully I've never needed it as I've never had a plane go into "safe mode" with me knowing!

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I think doing the second binding is the important thing. At this point you have the throttle channel the right way round.

 

What I've learned about quite recently is another difference that this second binding has on Spekky receivers that have SmartSafe, (that is pretty much all of them).

 

When you do the second bind on a SmartSafe receiver you get throttle position remembered ready for loss of signal, while all other channels will stay at last position on loss of signal.

 

ALSO though, all servo positions are actually saved, and these positions are used during the startup time at switch on, until the Tx and Rx are properly talking to each other. This is particularly useful if you don't want flaps to cycle to mid position then back up. Or if you want retracts to stay down rather than have the model collapse on the floor.

It will also eliminates the possibility of overdriving servos at startup too.

This is a more subtle but useful feature they don't tell us much about.

 

Spektrum receivers higher up the range have extra failsafe options as well, and this not always advertised. e.g. The AR8000 appears to have SmartSafe and preset failsafe as options. You just have to bind differently to choose.

[Spice Cat]

At this point may I be so bold as to suggest a new poll with safety in mind;

Who uses a model restraint?

I managed to leave mine at home last week and resorted to some cord tied to a fence post.

 

[Keith Simmons]

About the suggestion of the next poll. I always restrain my models.

[Olly P]

Posted by Keith Simmons on 13/02/2012 15:00:29:

Oh, a glider, That's different, your model may catch a thermal during a run away. . easily add noughts to your miles. and good luck that you may never have it happen for real. Can you have airbrakes that deploy on failsafe? (Or crow flaps I think?)

Edited By Keith Simmons on 13/02/2012 15:07:00

Keith, not in my current set up - it is a motor glider so the throttle closes and ailerons put it into a turn. This is deliberatly a RH turn so it will be away from the motorway on 3 out of 4 original headings, and only just enough to slowly bring it round, so that it is unlikely to cause a spiral dive before she comes back into range/ I regain control.

 

As I say the one occaision where it might have helped it wouldn't have anyway....

[Keith Simmons]

OK and thanks for your answer. I hope you will never ever lose your model to the motorway, or anyone from your club.

[Olly P]

Keith, it hasn't happened and we have been at this field (well the club, not me personally) longer than the motorway has been there!

 

Might measure the distance if I ever get around to it....

[Olly P]

0.9 miles ish, as the glider flies....

[Alwyn Gee]

Having read through this topic I am alarmed to read that some people seem happy to admit to operating potentially lethal equipment without understanding the basic safety instructions to ensure they do neither themselves or others any harm.

Would these same people jump into a vehicle and drive it on the public road without bothering to find out how to work the indicators, lights,wipers or heaven forbid the brakes!!!!!!!

 

I know there may be those, who through no fault of their own, may not understand the instruction manuals but "Please, Please, Please" ask someone who does to help you for your own and everybody else s sake.

 

Alwyn

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Alwyn Gee on 14/02/2012 14:15:41:

Would these same people jump into a vehicle and drive it on the public road without bothering to find out how to work the indicators, lights,wipers or heaven forbid the brakes!!!!!!!

 

Many do.

 

Good point though.

[Erfolg]

It is easy to be alarmed, over issues that are more imagined than are real.

 

Modellers are by and large, responsible people, no different to yourself and myself.

 

I have been reassured by the responses, almost all ensure if necessary (when not an automatic function) that the throttle is set to close on loss of signal. After that, you can then argue if the model should be set to last command or neutral (my preferred position) to your hearts content.

 

By and large a good outcome, yes, there can be some improvements, then we would be complacent if we did not acknowledge this general fact.

[Dave Bran]

Oh Dear Oh Dear..................Never going to be a consensus................and there sisn't one single "right" anyway.....

 

IMO if you are flying "in bounds" within a defined "safe" area (and who isn't please)................... then you and failing you the fail safe should try to retain the plane "in bounds"......which means effectively dropping it in as soon as signal lost.........last command or control neutral is therefore positively dangerous.

 

My usual legal club site has a school one way and a road the other...........a few seconds with a fast plane straight and level is all that would be needed...fail safes are therefore throttle cut, Aileron full left, Rudder full left, Elevator full up.....you are flying within the safe zone, the plane will stay there.......all the way to the ground!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Dave - I don't think the question is really about how you set the failsafe on the control surfaces - which is a personal/site specific concern - more on whether the minimum action of setting the throttle to idle or cut is complied with.

[Erfolg]

Good to see you have taken up the challenge Dave!!

 

 

 

The setting of the throttle to a minimum is a "should" not a "must" .

 

the setting of the throttle to Any powered model aircraft fitted with a receiver capable of operating in failsafe mode (i.e. PCM receivers or Digital Signal Processing (DSP) receivers) should have the failsafe set, as a minimum, to reduce the engine(s) speed to idle on loss or corruption of signal.

 

None the less, I do agree, it is sensible and prudent to do so. My disagreement has been those who present the situation as breaking the law. It may seem pedantic, yet it is the misrepresentation of the situation, which potentially makes a rod for own back.

 

I do welcome a campaign to set the throttle etc., on the basis of good practice. Although I do think it should be measured, devoid of the hyperbole of some. As I have stated before, I am encouraged by the poll.

 

In my opinion the balance of CAP 658, is measured, in that emphasis is placed on the relationship of model weight etc and the need to construct and operate a model in an appropriate manner. This is a measured approach, that some modellers seem unable to take on board when discussing risk etc., adopting a if I have to do it, so should you.

Edited By Erfolg on 14/02/2012 17:22:16

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 14/02/2012 17:20:41:

 

The setting of the throttle to a minimum is a "should" not a "must" .

 

I raised this very point with the author of an article in the BMFA news which stated that >7kg models were legally required to use failsafes.

 

There was no mention of them in the ANO that I could see so this is something which only appears as "best practice" in CAP 658 and the BMFA handbook but the response was that the CAA regard CAP 658 as being very close to a legal document (I know it should be black or white) and compliance was to be "encouraged".

 

Although the above is, of course, a legal nonsense, the position is very likely to be that the onus to prove why it wasn't reasonable to set a failsafe against strong "advice" would be put on the operator in the event of a legal examination.

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

Without fail!