Be honest, do you set the fail safe?

[flyeruk]

Thank you BEB,that would be very much appreciated.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Assuming they were using any of the common modern 2.4Ghz radios, I would think that anyone who couldn't figure out how to set a failsafe is potentially a danger to himself and others as he's unlikely to be able to figure other issues out too!.

 

e.g. If it's Spektrum radio, set up the model and all the travel directions, centre points etc, then put the throttle stick to low and re-bind. There, not so difficult surely? I can't believe it's any harder on any other gear.

 

I don't think there's much point setting anything other than throttle low and everything else to neutral or hold last position. The model could loose signal in just about any attitude, so picking some particular surface deflections that would save the model must be nigh on impossible. I guess gliders might be the exception?

 

Throttle low when you loose control is an entirely sensible position, even if there's nothing the model pose a danger to, the impact speed and therefore the damage to the model will be reduced.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Arrgghhhh - I can't get the word doc - which has a big table in it - to post! The system keeps saying its too many chars! I've tried converting to text - but then all the formating goes mad. Any suggestions?

 

I'll keep trying - sorry for the delay!

 

BEB

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Myron Beaumont on 12/02/2012 20:44:00:

John

Thank you for mentioning the "legal" aspect of failsafe I fly where the nearest neighbour (on his own by the way )is about 2 miles away and my models aren't likely to fly far left to their own kamacazi unstable flypath due to a failure .

Edited By Myron Beaumont on 12/02/2012 20:52:36

Its not just ground based "neighbours" you need to consider though, a big part of the very sensible fail safe ruling is to avoid conflict with other users of the airspace.

[Myron Beaumont]

Andy

I fly alone on my farm !

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Erfolg on 12/02/2012 20:14:42:

I do find the dogmatic you must set the fail safe, both trying and annoying.

 

What must it be set to by law? Or is it one of those dogma driven rants.

 

I just set my own to low throttle and last command. Hardly fail safe, as the set up could still lead to an issue. It is a set up, not guaranteed fail safe. I am not sure that leaving the faii safe alone, in principal, could lead to just as safe outcome as my low throttle setting.

 

Perhaps we should all learn to be responsible for ourselves, rather than tell others what is good them!

 

 

Whats trying and annoying about having to set the throttle failsafe to idle or off? Its a very sensible thing to do and takes only seconds to do.

 

While leaving the fail safe alone could lead to just as safe an outcome as a low throttle setting it could just as easily not, many years ago I had a model with a 20oz tank and a zenoah 26 engine, the throttle link came off not long after takeoff with the model on about half throttle, I had been advised (erroneously I now know) to take the spring off the throttle that would have closed it in this event. Not a problem I thought, fly around for 10-15 minutes then a dead stick landing, turned out it was fly around for an hour and 10 minutes then do a deadstick landing, now I had full control of all other channels so it wasn't really an issue but imagine the potential for a less than happy outcome if the model had gone in to failsafe with the throtle bit set incorrectly, maybe hold last position, it could have gone a long long way in that 1hour 10 mins.

 

There is no excuse at all for not setting the throttle failsafe correctly.

[GrahamC]

BEB - is it a single page? What about using print screen, pasting it into power point and saving it a a jpeg - then at least we can see it.

I've seen the failsafe set inadvertently to open the throttle rather than shut it three times. As a previous poster says this happens when people bind the receiver, then set up the radio, reversing the throttle channel in the process and then fail to rebind the receiver.

This issue also seems to affect more experienced modellers using new equipment in which the fail safe memory is in the receiver. It may be because they are used to setting the failsafe in the TX rather than the RX and don't realise that the RX doesn't know you have changed the settings in the TX.

The idea of a model disappearing off or heading for the pits at full bore doesn't really bear thinking about!

The other thing I saw a few weeks ago was a Futaba rx that seems to have forgotten the fail safe setting.

A member of the club brought a Wot4 XL to the field. It was set up right the last time it came back in November, but the next time it came in January the fail safe had reverted to the origional incorrect setting. Very odd, and a little unnerving.

I wonder if a guide and warning about this issue might be worth publishing in the magazine?

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Myron Beaumont on 12/02/2012 22:14:30:

Andy

I fly alone on my farm !

I think you have missed my point, you may fly alone on your farm however you have no control or legal right to control the airspace above your farm, a very small chance of it happening I know, but imagine lets say the air ambulance flies over your farm on the way to an emergency and your model is out of control and because you hadn't set the failsafe it is on a high throttle setting and climbing, the helicopter pilot may not see your model and a real disaster could happen.

 

Its a scenario that thankfully is unlikely but could happen and is part of the reasoning behind the failsafe ruling.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Myron Beaumont on 12/02/2012 22:14:30:

Andy

I fly alone on my farm !

 

Sigh....

[Myron Beaumont]

I think the very expression "failsafe " is a much misaligned misnomer if you don't really know what might happen .Maybe I should fit an ejector seat in my car .Then again I might land on someone and not be insured for it so that a "suit " can make money out of me 'cos I'm protecting myself .I'm off to bed

[Andy Symons]

I think we all know that setting the failsafe correctly is going to bring the model down fairly quickly so we do actually know what might happen.The CAA want the model out of the air if you have no control over it. Simples!!

 

Whether the expression is a misnomer or not is quite irrelevant.

[Alan Cantwell]

there seems to be some hostilty to "jobsworths" and other words of disrespect, there is mention of neighbours miles away, please consider the fact that a model aircraft can go upwards, as much as it can go forwards, and the NUMBER 1 purpose of a failsafe is to keep models out of the air lanes,

Also please consider, its not our national body, its not the LMA, its the bosses of ALL air matters, the CAA, and believe me, if our national body, and the LMA had not been involved at the onset of fail safes, the bonds would have been much stricter, so the neddys and jobsworth are our aviation peers, this debate has been going on since the onset of PCM recievers, QuiteWHY a failsafe function had to be built into the 2.4 system, i know not, now, instead of models over 7kg, every aircraft with a 2.4 reciever has to be so set up, personally, its over egging the pudding, a question was asked a few threads back, who checks the failsafe function? answer at club level? not many, this is where the system fails folk who have not previously needed to check, simply still dont check, be honest, who has seen, at club level, a model getting checked before take off?

[Myron Beaumont]

OK Y'all

I get the message -I will set up my fail safes .I think just a throttle cut will satisfy you if I can figure out how .I actually think that my Optic 6 does it automatically but will check it out .

I really dont understand this technology you know . It's my brain problem and I fully understand that you don't understand me .

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Alan 4 on 12/02/2012 22:36:44: a question was asked a few threads back, who checks the failsafe function? answer at club level? not many, this is where the system fails folk who have not previously needed to check, simply still dont check, be honest, who has seen, at club level, a model getting checked before take off?

I have!! I always check my model failsafes at the start of a flying session as part of my pre flight routines, Its something I always look for when examining candiates for the achievement scheme too, also when I have been running flightlines all models are checked.

 

A few years ago at the do I used to organise at Castle Howard a chap came up to fly his WOT 4, he was using 2.4GHz so I asked him to demonstrate the failsafe working. Why? says he its only a WOT 4 and not over 7kg, I explained the ruling, he still thought it was silly and I was being a "jobsworth" but when it was checked the throttle went wide open!!!!

 

Needless to say he is now better "educated"

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Myron Beaumont on 12/02/2012 22:45:49:

OK Y'all

I get the message -I will set up my fail safes .I think just a throttle cut will satisfy you if I can figure out how .I actually think that my Optic 6 does it automatically but will check it out .

I really dont understand this technology you know . It's my brain problem and I fully understand that you don't understand me .

Only throttle cut is required!! If its the 2.4GHz version it will be capable, if its the 35MHz it will have if its PCM but may not if using PPM.

 

However if your models are over 7kg you must have a working throttle failsafe whatever!!

[Myron Beaumont]

Andy

My models aren't over 7 Kg and guess what ,I never understood all these PCM & PPM things anymore than I understand you Spectrum peeps talking of all the letters and numbers to do with the variety of configurations .

Just call me Thick

[Erfolg]

Of course there is a hostility to jobs worth. Why? Because they make statements which are often not factual. Accepting responsibility for nothing, whilst telling others what to do.

 

To date no one has extracted the relevant passages with respect to legislation or codes of practice.

 

With respect to codes of practice, I was advised, they are only guidance, you are still responsible, if your defense can be shown to be deficient what ever a code may say, you may be judged liable.

 

So rather than say we must do this, or that, print the legislation, then a few hints on how compliance can be demonstrated. No more jobs worthing.

[Alan Cantwell]

no one here is doing such a thing, i myself am an examiner, its my job to know the rules and regs, if i dont, then i am not fit to teach, or examine, its set out in CAP 658 that an aircraf fitted with a fail safe must have that fail safe set, if you wish,

 

have a plough through this lot

 

to be honest, if you fly model aircraft, and have taken any form of cert, then you shold know this already, ANOs and CAP are very high on the question list for examiner questions, i, and others, am mearly passing on the legalities we have been taught, painfull as it is

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Erfolg on 12/02/2012 23:12:46:

With respect to codes of practice, I was advised, they are only guidance, you are still responsible, if your defense can be shown to be deficient what ever a code may say, you may be judged liable.

 

So rather than say we must do this, or that, print the legislation, then a few hints on how compliance can be demonstrated. No more jobs worthing.

There is a big difference to "may be judged liable" and "will be judged liable"

 

I'm not sure anyone who needs hints on how compliance can be demonstrated should be using any RC radio gear as they are more likely to have bigger challenges to deal with, like trying not to fall over as much.

[Ian Jones]

When I start to build/assemble a model I also start a "to do" and there's two obvious things that are always at the top of the list even though they will not get any attention until shortly before the maiden flight. They are 1. Range Check and 2. Failsafe.

[Colin Bernard]

I can't understand why anyone would question the use of failsafe (or fail mitigator!)

 

If I lose my radio link, then not only do I want to prevent my pride and joy climbing into airspace and becoming a hazard, or flying off into the next village and causing havoc there, I also want it to come down as close to me as possible so I can recover the remains, rather than see all those £'s fly off never to be seen again.

 

It's common sense to me, as well as my duty as a responsible aeromodeller.

 

Alan has already mentioned CAP658 where chapter 5, section 1 states:

 

Failsafes

Any powered model aircraft fitted with a receiver capable of operating in failsafe

mode (i.e. PCM receivers or Digital Signal Processing (DSP) receivers) should

have the failsafe set, as a minimum, to reduce the engine(s) speed to idle on

loss or corruption of signal.

 

QED !!!

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Tim Mackey on 12/02/2012 17:24:30:
Not sure how that would be AFAIK...failsafe only operates if signal fails, not low battery as it needs a proper power supply to activate the failsafe

Edited By Tim Mackey on 12/02/2012 17:24:59

If it was a Futaba PCM or 2.4 then a low battery is signalled by a reduction to the idle setting by default - which can be reset by throttling back and re-opening in the manner of an ESC LVC.

 

I have to declare myself in the "why wouldn't you?" camp - apart from the BMFA's direction on the matter and it appearing to me to be sheer common sense to use it, failure to do so could very conceivably be judged as being against Articles 73 and 74 of the ANO.

 

Some may argue there's no proof of this but I'd far rather be in a position to use it as evidence of taking reasonable care than try to argue why I might have ignored it and the advice of CAP 658...

 

If any lone flyer is having trouble working out how to set their failsafes then please give the forum details of your set-up and I'm sure we can assist you to take advantage of the facility.

 

There does seem to be a lack of awareness in some modellers using 2.4 that most, if not all 2.4 GHz equipment has the facility and that's something for club safety officers and committees to be aware of and perhaps something the BMFA could highlight in the BMFA News on a regular basis.

Edited By Martin Harris on 13/02/2012 09:01:18

[Olly P]

Yes, I do set failsafes before committing aviation, I also check them.

 

I personnally have my powered glider set up to close the throttle, and 1/2 right aileron. This will eventually bring it back towrds me, with a chance of regaining control, or 'land' it in the trees....

 

 

The only flyaway I've ever had was I think due to the BEC failing in the ESC. This was the ESC supplied with the Wot4 FoamE, but as the airframe was never found then I can not verify it....

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/02/2012 22:01:45:

Arrgghhhh - I can't get the word doc - which has a big table in it - to post! The system keeps saying its too many chars! I've tried converting to text - but then all the formating goes mad. Any suggestions?

 

I'll keep trying - sorry for the delay!

 

BEB

Scan it & post the JPEG BEB...? Or ask those interested to PM you their email address so you can send it....Or publish it on Google Docs & post a link to the document....(or if you like send it to me & I'll stick in on the electricsetups domain & post a link from there....)

 

PS yep always set my failsafe.....throttle to idle & surfaces to neutral. Fuby PCM failsafe will close the throttle in the event of a low voltage battery.....returning the throttle stick to neutral will allow you to "pick up" the engine again for another 30 seconds....this feature saved one of my models when a new battery was found to be duff...

[Ian Jones]

Google Docs is a good idea - here's an example . After it's uploaded you can share it, public - view only.