Futaba FAAST: important announcement (from Ripmax website)

[G]

A friend of mine, a very experienced and careful flyer, had trouble getting his 6EX 2.4 to talk to his receivers when previously they had been fine, so of course he kept turning it on and off to try to solve the problem, and eventually turned it off fast enough to cause it to reset.  We didn't know what the problem was at the time (3 weeks ago) but of course now we know.  So yes, it seems all too easy to cause the problem.

As for the merits of either system, I believe that in practice they're both perfectly good and either is fine once this issue is solved. 

[Peter Miller]

I bought Spektrum early last year. Some club members have followed me. I was tipped off about the Futaba problems two or three weeks ago by another editor. Now no one in the club will touch it.

I know nothing about electronics but a system that uses two frequencies so that one works if the other is hit sounds logically safer than one that keeps skipping about.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Not sure I follow the logic there Peter...do explain?

[Peter Miller]

Well, if you have two frequencies and one is blanked out by interferrence the other one still keeps working and sending inputs to the servos. At least, that is what the Horizon DVD said.

The Futaba sends one frequency but keeps changing. If the RX loses track of where the Tx is going there is no other connection. That is a question, if the TX is changing frequencies every few micro seconds how DOES the Rx know where to go to to follow it?

[Chris Bell]

Sounds like he had the problem when he had trouble getting the units to link Gary - The announcement doesnt say that doing this WILL cause your unit to reset to 00000 only that as a precaution you shouldnt do it.

The way this thread is going you'd think that planes were falling our of the sky all over england rather than the few ( 1 in the USA ? and 2 in the wild in the UK ) out of the hundreds of 6EX 7C and 7TM modules sold....

You dont think this is getting a bit of a drama ?

I quite understand there are some die hard JR users out there quite beside themselves with glee at the though of Futaba making a pigs ear of the ( And they have ) the same way futaba users did when it was announced that Speky RX's reboot at 3.8v, but really - lets get a reality check..

I do hope Futaba have this thing sorted now.

Chris

[Jacko]

Ex C/L, returning to modelling after 40+ years, just purchased 6EX 2.4  from US Dec 07  on cost and Futaba's reputation, First time with R/C.  Now living in New Zealand.

Read all of your notes and find them very informative, good arguments and sound advice all round. Well don all of you , but the question remains,      ' Serial numbers ?'          Have these been obtained from Ripmax/Futaba, are they going to be published? I hear what you say about a fast on/off switch action, but it would be nice to have an reference point!!

The Kiwi will be an Eagle.

[Tim Mackey]

Peter has summed up nicely the points I was waffling on about in a much simpler way !

Incidentally regarding your question on frequency hopping Peter..."if the TX is changing frequencies every few micro seconds how DOES the Rx know where to go to to follow it?"

It doesnt actually follow it per se, but is programmed to hop up and down the frequencies in a synchronised way in harmony ( hopefully !! ) with an identical "clock" in the tr. As long as these two very fast and acuurate clocks stay on the same time, things are matched.

If I didnt already state my position on the merits of both different systems ( sarcasm intended )

then it is the same as yours - IE redundancy over 2 superfast clocks keeping in time !!

CHRIS BELL - can you answer my question posed to you above ?

[Chris Bell]

Hi Timbo,No not an expert - other than 20 odd years in the IT industry - about 5 of those working on wireless networks.

I read all I could read on both units and based my eventual decision on the following.But it should be pointed out that in everything I'd read on the 2 systems BOTH were going to be much less likely to suffer from interference, so any differences/preferences are only going to make a minor difference. Lets not make believe one system TOTALLY out strips the other because it doesn’t..

a) Spektrums system locks onto 2 channels - therefore if sufficient interference is generated on those 2 channels the system will fail. The futaba system hops around all 80 channels and is therefore less likely to suffer total failure of signal, Yes I know the chances of this happening are very very very small.

b) The Futaba system has a throttle idle system when/if the RX voltage drops below 3.8V - the JR system just resets.

c) The Futaba system needed only 1 RX whereas the Spektrum system needed 1 plus a satellite Receiver.

d) (This may be just company hype.) Futaba have at least according to their web site 15 years working with Spread Spectrum systems. Until they released this latest system I'd never heard of Spektrum.

I guess you do tend to go with what you know at the end if the day.

All that said appart from this latest issue, I've never noticed any difference in the ability of either system to keep a model in the air - both seem to work just fine.

Best, Chris

[Chris Bell]

Hi Peter -

The way I understand it the RX locks onto the TX and uses the GUID to form a pattern of hops.

Providing they both start at the same time and neither reset in flight they cannot miss each other.

Of course this comes from reading info on the internet - so could be totally wrong

But it seems to work just fine.

Chris

[Peter Miller]

As I said, I know nothing about radio or electronics, the duplicate frequencies just sounded safer to me.

Mind you, when I bought it Futaba hadn't even mentioned theirs.

I much prefer the throttle cut option via a swtich on the Futaba, I also like the Futaba option of exponential on the throttle to get a more linear response without fiddling with the geometry.

My FF8 will be in use for many more years I hope.

[Chris Bell]

Lol I should think so Peter I still have my optic 6 

Chris

[Former Member]

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[Tim Mackey]

Use tweezers.

[Tom Sharp]

On a cold day I have to use tweezers.

[Tom Foreman]

Well Lancaster Model Shop can test my Radio out tomorrow, so fingers crossed and all that

[Tim Mackey]

On a cold day I have to use tweezers

[Peter Miller]

A new club member said that a fairly local model shop (NOT Galaxy!) told him that it was only the very first Futaba EX sets that had the problem. I told him to go ahead, after all, he would be safe enough. No one else in the club would buy one.

[wlfk]

It may be that some of the sets have left the factory without the correct GUID number having been programmed in, but it's also the case that if you turn the Futaba system on then off quickly you can erase the TX GUID number leading to the same problem.

Well, a few months back I tried to fire up my T-Rex and found that it had de-bound to the TX. It worked after I re-bound it and I was slightly concerned. A week or two back I ordered a new receiver which worked straight out of the box...

I think I have a problem.

I phoned Ripmax who were frankly quite dismissive of the problem - they didn't deny that it existed but did deny that it was a significant issue. I tend to disagree.

If the problem affected particular batches of TXs then it may well be that clusters of receivers are in use in particular areas, making the problem much more significant than it would be if those TXs were randomly dispersed.

If TXs can lose the GUID the current state of the problem doesn't predict the future. For example, the average FAAST system has probably only been used for a few months. 4 years down the line, and when people have converted more of their models to FAAST and are using it more heavily, the proportion of affected TXs might have increased tenfold.

Having said that, there are a few other problems with the TX (e.g. throttle hold reverts to idle-up pitch curves) but in general I'm very happy with it. It's been nearly bombproof - at one point I had a 2.4ghz camera mounted on my helicopter. The TX interfered with the camera so it was unusable. But the radio control continued to work fine. By all accounts this doesn't work with Spektrum!

Incidentally, Spektrum might have fewer programming issues, but the forums suggeset they do have a nasty habit of locking out due to voltage glitches.

K

[Tim Mackey]

As I have repeated on this forum in several threads, receiver failure due to low voltage is NOT a fault.

This is down to operator error -EG: using an unsuitable radio battery!!

ANY R/C receiver will "fail" one way or another if it is not fed enough juice. 

[G]

If I understood correctly Spectrum recievers have been accused not just of glitching if the battery voltage dips below 3.8V, but actually resetting, a process that takes five seconds or more?  Clearly a glitch is fair enough, no user should let their battery get so flat anyway.  But a long reset process is disastrous. 

I feel manufacturers should not introduce any equipment that is less foolproof than the norm everyone is used to.  So if Spektrum receivers really can stop working for significantly longer due to a voltage drop, that's a design fault and they should have designed it better.  But perhaps the anecdotal reports of Spektrum receivers losing contact for a long time or even unbinding completely are not true.  (Let's face it, some flyers will blame anything other than their own mistake if they crash!)  If the Spektrum receivers only glitch due to low voltage, I reckon that should not be considered a fault.

[Tim Mackey]

Irrespective of the resultant action of the receiver -be it glitch, shutdown, re-boot, spontaneous combustion, or whatever...the point I am making is THIS IS NOT A FAULT. The reported and now confirmed problems with the Futaba system is a manufacturing / component / software FAULT.

David has opened up this debate to specifically discuss the merits or otherwise of the DSS system versus the FHSS one of the Futaba, and it is only other people who chose to mention the "problems" reported with the Spekky that have subsequently sparked this particular discussion.

"A long reset process is disastrous " - well so is a receiver being unable to work properly because the BEC on the cheap little ESC the pilot chose to use was incapable of supplying the receiver and 5 high power servos, even though the instructions stated its limitations

Spektrum manuals clearly state the procedure to follow to ensure that receivers do not suffer a drop out due to low voltage - the fact that the majority of people take no notice of these warnings is OPERATOR FAULT, NOT equipment.

By all means if people wish to debate the consequences of a system's limitations caused by some idiot using a tiny little 600mahr 4 cell battery on a 12lb model with 6 digital servos, then lets have the discussion.

"Is it me" as Sir Tel would say

[Tim Mackey]

John I think you are on the wrong thread here mate, and I would get out quick whilst its still safe LOL

[Glen Josefski]

This post is from "down under" and "out in the sticks"  = in the outback.  In my case,  thanks  for forums such as this to keep up with the outside world.  Good one, R.C.M. & E.  Where the R.C.M. & E magazine and others do not reach,  forums such as this extends the boundaries.   I read and devoured all literature on the Spectrum 2.4 since during its introduction, with the intent to seek a bullett-proof radio to install in a scratch built scale model of the Edgley Optica, a model that I've invested over 1000 hrs labour in so far. Anything to avoid a dreaded "wipeout". Then appeared the Futaba FASST. Decision time. Local supply could not keep up with the demand for any 2.4, so I imported a Futaba FASST from the United States. After reading the pros and cons on this forum, I do not regret my decision to opt for the Futaba 2.4GHz, still believing the 2.4 to be a lot "safer" than the 36MHz.  The posts here suggesting all 2.4GHZ fliers at a site to turn all t/xs and model r/xs at the same time before any flying commences - to reveal any interference/glitchers whatsoever- is a procedure I and my flying group will adopt as of from now. Many thanks to all those knowledgable people out there on this forum.   Glen

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Ok, well I popped in to a model shop this morning for the test. The common coded receiver from Ripmax had arrived and we connected a servo and powered everything up according to the instructions. The servo failed to respond and the receiver green light continued flashing so I was happy - this meant my Tx was not common coded. It was from the first batch into the country last spring by the way.

I expected a sticker to show my Tx was ok and although I got a sticker, it carried a warning not to switch off within 5 seconds of switching on. The proprietor got a new, unsold 6EX 2.4 off the shelf and wanted to see how easy it would be in practice to make this happen so he proceeded to give the switch a good thrashing, repeatedly switching it on and off within 1/2 a second or less. The Tx then proceeded to operate with the test receiver so the proprietor had in doing so, uncoded the Tx. I couldn't quite believe what I'd seen but it was a salutary warning to me that I mustn't cycle the unit quickly. What he did was something that I'd never to to my Tx and was clearly an exageration of normal use but it would appear to be possible to achieve from what I saw.  

[Former Member]

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