"Never-before-seen interview with the notorious Bomber Harris."

[Simon Chambers]

Very interesting interview from Bomber Harris that was done internally in the RAF. This is the first time it's ever been shown in public. I don't believe there are too many interviews with Bomber Harris after the war.

As its on iPlayer, its unfortunately only available to our UK friends.

Inside Out West - 11/02/2013 - Skip forward to 20:30 to see the section on it.

Be quick, it's only available for the next 6 days!!

Fascinating stuff and makes you wonder what other gems are hidden and rotting away in the archives somewhere.

Si.

[Pete B]

Sorry, Simon, I cannot agree with the word notorious in the title - Bomber Harris was the right person, at the right time, to do a job that had to be done. Would you describe the bomber aircrews as notorious, doing the job they did?

As was said at the time, "They who sow the wind, reap the whirlwind". He masterminded the whirlwind, thankfully.

Describe AH as notorious, by all means - but I prefer to think of BH as a legend.........

Pete

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I don't believe the wording in the title of this thread is particularly appropriate. Perhaps the word notorious should be replaced by something reflecting a wartime commander directed to do a job in conditions of total war that few (if any) of us have experienced, who has been honoured by a statue erected to his memory fairly recently.

But thanks for the link.

(No - I'm not related as far as I'm aware!)

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/02/2013 22:15:50

[Simon Chambers]

I don't agree on the title either! It was just the title of the report that the BBC gave... So I put it in quotes. 

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 12/02/2013 22:15:37

[Simon Chambers]

The actual report gives a very interesting view from Bomber Harris perspective. From what he said (iirc), the bombing of Dresden, et al. was actually ordered to him from higher up.

Si.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Martin Harris on 12/02/2013 22:13:16:

(No - I'm not related as far as I'm aware!)

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/02/2013 22:15:50

Aw Martin - all my illusions are shattered!

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Seriously, from what I've read Harris got a pretty raw deal. In 1941/2 the only way to take the war to Germany was via the bombers. There was a tremendous political push to make that happen. Harris may have masterminded it - but he didn't give the orders for 1000's of Lancs to be built. That came from the the very top where the strategy was being promoted vigourously.

Harris was a military leader - in war time - his job was to deliver the strategy of his government absolutely without question. Miliatry leaders who question the orders of democratic governments can be on a very slippery slope! Now it so happened he was an enthusiastic supporter of the strategy - but the point is he was far from alone.

Over 55,000 aircrew gave their life too realise that strategy and at the end of the war all the politicians distanced themselves from it. I think that was disgraceful. Bomber command were the only ones left out in terms of a specific campaign medal for example, and as we all know only very recently was the sacrifice of the crews commemorated with a memorial - and that required private subsciptions to make it happen.

I fully accept that Simon was simply quoting the title of the interview - its by no means his fault. But maybe that title is symtomatic of the "airbrushing of history" that is becoming increasing common where the second world war is concerned. And ihat is very worrying.

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It gets worse - for many years I was known as Biggles at work...and Bomber Harris at my gliding club.

[Pete B]

Well I had my suspicions about you being Biggles' Elder Brother.........

Pete

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Haven't you noticed Pete that you never see the two of us in the same room at the same time?

BEB

[Pete B]

I seem to remember a similar conversation with you at Greenacres when we were talking about George Clooney........

Pete

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/02/2013 22:38:52:

I fully accept that Simon was simply quoting the title of the interview - its by no means his fault. But maybe that title is symtomatic of the "airbrushing of history" that is becoming increasing common where the second world war is concerned. And ihat is very worrying.

It was one of the reasons why I quoted and posted it, as I thought the title was an interesting point in itself. Something that maybe of interest to the older generation is that the WWII bombing campaigns and the merits of it has been taught in schools in recent years. I remember around 11-12 years ago (gah saying that makes me feel old), when studying my History GCSE, having 2 weeks of lessons dedicated to the task of debating the bombing of Dresden. What is typical in modern teaching of history and its associated literature such as books is not necessarily to make judgement, but provide evidence from both sides of the story. Then its up to the student to decide and argue the point - thus forming part of the essay homework+coursework and eventually examination.

So some modern literature may pass judgement, but there will always the bunch that was educated to make their own judgements and question things.

What I found fascinating about the video is the recording circumstances. It was done not for broadcast but for teaching future RAF students. Also being of the old tape format, sections are unlikely to be edited. Thus Bomber Harris viewpoint is not only one that he can make in an open and frank way, but also contains a period of reflection and hindsight too.

A small gem of history that I can see being lost again, once this iPlayer clip expires!

Si.

[Simon Chambers]

Here is a small extract from the video that we've been watching, that should be available to watch elsewhere in the world if you can't see the above:

**LINK**

Si.

[Gazza58]

Thank you Simon for flagging this up so that more people may view the content.

I, for one, am grateful that in times of conflict we seem to find men of exceptional leadership and the stomach to carry out such difficult tasks that us ordinary beings would struggle to resolve. I really do not want to make this a political issue but show me a politician of any party with the integrity that this man showed in our darkest hour.

[Pete B]

Posted by Simon Chambers on 12/02/2013 21:50:19:

As its on iPlayer, its unfortunately only available to our UK friends.

Where there's a will, there's a way, Simon

Thanks for pointing us towards that all-too-brief extract. With a bit of luck, the MOD publicity machine might upload the whole interview to Youtube - in our dreams!

I don't think it will change anything as those who vilify the man will never regard him as anything but a butcher.

One wonders just what pressure Stalin was putting on Churchill at that time - it's likely Dresden was bombed at Stalin's behest.

Churchill's silence and lack of support for Harris after the war is an enduring stain on his record.

Pete

[Miketgd]

Notorious? I don't think so. It was Churchill who said: “The fighters are our salvation but the bombers alone provide the means of victory” and look at what he did to Bomber Command. It is no surprise that the politicians of today cannot be trusted.

It is seldom mentioned that the USAAF was scheduled to bomb Dresden on the 13th February but did not do so due to bad weather. The RAF bombed that night. The following day 316 B17s dropped 771 tons of bombs on Dresden, mostly using H2X (inaccurate with wide dispersal) aiming due to smoke and cloud cover over the City. The USAAF then bombed Dresden again (using H2X) on the 15th with 211 aircraft using 465 tons of bombs. Follow up raids by the USAAF took place on March 2nd (406 B-17s/940 tons HE/141 tons of Incendiaries) and April 17th (580 B-17s/1554 tons HE/165 tons of Incendiaries).

[Lee Smalley]

Bomber Harris Joins a long list of people who great great work for our country, in its greatest hour of need, only then to be "shafted" and treated deplorably by the same country and its politicians, bomber harris, alan turing, frank whittle to name but a few, it is a really sad stain on our history and if politicians of today actually had any guts then they would stand up and apologise and award them the george cross or sommat!!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 13/02/2013 19:09:16

[bouncebounce crunch]

Was he notoriously bad or good at what? he had a job to do and did it his way in a time that was stressfull , dangerous and with plenty of steep learning curves for all involved. history should not judge him so badly.

Edited By bouncebouncecrunch on 13/02/2013 09:31:38

[Devon Flyer]

Posted by Simon Chambers on 12/02/2013 22:15:05:

I don't agree on the title either! It was just the title of the report that the BBC gave...

Which tells you a lot about the political leanings of the BBC and their editorial staff.

BBC.....................Biased Broadcasting Corporation.

[Reno Racer]

I can speak with some experience and authority on this area. Arthur Harris was a military leader and whether we agree with governmental strategic policy or not, the responsibility of a leader is to inspire, motivate and take responsibilty for those we command to achieve the aim. Whether he agreed or not with the strategic policy at the time, his leadership in exectuting this campaign, i think, is unquestionable and he certainly did his utmost to ensure we achieved the aim with the minimum of cost to aircrew life. We do the same today with operations in Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

Incidently, we are going to Dresden next week on leave and staying in a friends holiday home; the friend is a German Army officer - quite ironic in this instance.

Chris

[Erfolg]

As with most historic events, there is always an aspect of perspective and the effects of time.

In an age where atomic weapons can wipe out whole cities and a single rocket carry multiple war heads the idea that the wiping out whole cities, along with the people, men, women, children and babies, it seems pretty tame stuff.

Looked at from a point on the time line say in the 16th century, wiping out indiscriminately civilian populations, would even then been seen the act of a barbarian.

One of the troubles with WW2, is that it is often a story of escalation by all sides, to win. Accidental events, used as the cloak of justification of ever more savage responses. You do not have to look far to find examples where both sides have used the excuse.

My farther once said, you cannot judge events which happen in war, with the same values as peace time. Just recognise that is what happens if you loose.

Although WW2 is still in some peoples living experiences, much has been struck from the historic memory, that what lead to the war. The continuos threat of the French to annex the Rhineland, Poland cutting of East Prussia (Danzig), the hyper inflation, events which all lead to Hitler. I think it will be another generation at least, before much of WW2 can be objectively accessed.

For me it is interesting, that in the UK the bombing of a number dams in Germany is seen as a valiant effort and accomplishment. Yet the same act, has lead to the revision of the Geneva convention, which could arguably now make the same act a war crime, if done today. Enough that adverts were pulled from TV when it was pointed out that not only was the advert offensive to many in Germany, also glorifying an act which to many today would be questionable. That is bombing a dam where large civilian populations would be killed. Which seems at odds with the potential of nuclear weapons.

As for Bomber Harris, I would say, if others were to do the same things on the same scale to the UK, would we think it was OK. Then what he or others initiated was acceptable, then he did nothing at all wrong. I just hope we never find some one who is prepared to do the same to us, be it right, or wrong.

I do have a vested interest, without WW2 and all of the events, I would not exist, so like the walrus and the carpenter, "I may deeply sympathise, with sobs an tears". At the end of the day if things had been different you would not be reading this.

[Tony Read 2]

Good interview, but very little of the original shown. Would love to see the full 90 minutes.

The broadcast where Bomber Harris says his famous 'reap the whirlwind' speech always makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Terrific stuff.

[Greybeard]

"As for Bomber Harris, I would say, if others were to do the same things on the same scale to the UK, would we think it was OK. Then what he or others initiated was acceptable, then he did nothing at all wrong. I just hope we never find some one who is prepared to do the same to us, be it right, or wrong."

Just for the record we did come across them; and did something about it. We are fortunate that our warriors - with the help of those from the USA - got better at it than the otherside; hence my being able to type this in English.

But isn't this thread too far removed from the forum's purpose?

[Erfolg]

My comments are with respect to the ethics.

There are a number of aspects which are common with all conflicts. Your side is always in the right, your side is fighting for freedom or an injustice, your side will never be beat, fairly, our boys are always braver than the others, the other side is always despicable, untrustworthy, deserve anything we do etc.

I have been puzzled by views often expressed with conflicts such as Afghanistan, where a wrong is felt that Insurgents use the tactics that are employed. Minutemen, would would fire from forests or other cover at British troupes, then blend back into the farming communities. During the war for independence, the fighters would have been considered insurgents, as the British Authority was the legal (the British position) entity.

In my opinion, most wars have less to do with rights and wrongs than is desirable. They cost a lot of lives, incredible sums of money. Dependant on who wins, depends on the historic portrait. I cannot think of any war, where the winner has written or it has been recorded as being wrong.

I personally do not see Harris as a hero, but he did his job. Then again, I have little if anything to say that is positive about Georing either, other than he failed at his job.

In essence I see wars as a waste, where all the injured are soon forgotton, unless forced into our conscience.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

This thread is wondering into very murky political waters. Before it moves somewhere we really can not let it go I'm going to shut it down. I think its served its primary purpose which was to alert those who are interested to the existance of the interview on iPlayer.

BEB