Peter Christy Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Erfolg, I can only speak from my experience. The BMFA does genuinely try to represent all modellers. The problem is that the vast majority are "armchair critics", who are quite content to sit back and ask "why doesn't someone do something about xxx?", but never volunteer to get involved themselves. The end result - as in Unions, Government, and just about every other human activity - is that a vocal minority tends to hold the reigns. The BMFA is also in something of a cleft stick as regards competitiors, as it is delegated by the Royal Aero Club to look after the interests of competitors. I don't have an issue with this, as I do believe that competition improves the breed, however I can see that at times, it can appear to be an over-riding objective. The fact that the majority of members join solely for the purposes of insurance is "the elephant in the room"! The powers that be are very well aware of the fact (in my experience), but the only people who turn up at the various meetings where policy is decided are, generally, the above mentioned "vocal minority". I'm sure no-one would be more delighted than the Chairman and Executive Committee, if more everyday modellers got involved. But it simply doesn't happen. And until it does, things will plod on as they are! Regarding the insurance issue, my one big worry is that - statistically - we are long overdue for a big, public accident. If / when (God forbid!) it happens, you can be sure that the Daily Mail, et al, will be screaming for "something to be done"! My big fear is that in such a circumstance, the government would act to force all model pilots into some form of licensing. On the plus side, however, the BMFA (despite the slagging off it frequently gets from its members!) actually has very good relations with the various authorities, be it the CAA or the European Authorities. Believe it or not, the BMFA is highly regarded internationally, and not just amongst the modelling fraternity. But as with so many things, it only takes a single idiot to screw it up for everyone. And an uninsured, non-BMFA pilot could well be that idiot. -- Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel sheffield Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 A question, I admit to not having bmfa insurance but wonder if I got it would I be covered where I fly anyway, I use a school football field and fly mostly dlg and 2m foamie gliders, I do not have permision from the school, indead I remember seeing a sign saying no rc models no dogs no motor bikes but everyone walks their dogs there and kids often ride motor bikes around, the school sports instructor has seen me many times and never complained and does not seem to mind at all. KNowing this would the bmfa insurance be invalid anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Nigel Pushing your local council etc, will almost always result in a NO! In the case of our local council, they retain the power to ban almost anything they like. In practise they do not, as long as no one causes an issue. Importantly they have the power in reserve. Peter I think i agree with you if not completely, pretty much so, I would be pushed to find something I do not. Ah, one thing that we do not know the answer to, is what the next significant incident will be, or who will be the prime mover. I am not convinced it will not be a BMFA member. I do see a tension between the average member and some aspects of BMFA hierarchy. That tension arises from what you have highlighted. Activist, generally have aims and interests which can be very different to most members. The one member one vote moves things very much in the right direction. The challenge is now to move forward to provide and encourage a broader interest in the BMFA. I have to admit that I am a "back slider", on recent retirement, I was invited by the Mechanical Engineers to give some of my time in supporting the organisation. Th sad aspect is, I believe in engineering as a profession. Whereas I see the BMFA as a political issue, I see engineering as being of national importance and still have not responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Can we keep this thread on topic please Peter and Erflog - in case anyone has forgotten (!) the topic is insurance - not influencing the BMFA! Thanks BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Posted by nigel sheffield on 16/07/2013 19:01:35: A question, I admit to not having bmfa insurance but wonder if I got it would I be covered where I fly anyway, I use a school football field and fly mostly dlg and 2m foamie gliders, I do not have permision from the school, indead I remember seeing a sign saying no rc models no dogs no motor bikes but everyone walks their dogs there and kids often ride motor bikes around, the school sports instructor has seen me many times and never complained and does not seem to mind at all. KNowing this would the bmfa insurance be invalid anyway? Where do we start, Nigel? That's certainly not an attitude any responsible flier could even begin to endorse, particularly as there is a clear indication that flying RC models is forbidden. There may well be a byelaw under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act which I believe governs activities on school playing fields, so you could find yourself open to prosecution - and you really wouldn't have any grounds to complain.... Just because others ignore the rules, does it mean you can, too? A 2m foamie can give anyone a heck of a whack around the ear, with untold possible consequences, so I think you are skating on very thin ice indeed. Now, regarding insurance, I may be wrong, but I suspect that if you were covered and had an accident in such circumstances, the insurance company may have no alternative but to pay out to the third party but I'd expect them to try and recover their costs from you....and that could prove very expensive. Alternatively, you cannot get insurance to cover you for an unlawful act, so it may be that you wouldn't be covered anyway. Either way, I'd not want to be the third party involved. I'm sure you realise that what you are doing is out of order. An accident could have consequences for many more people than just yourself, so I'd ask you to seriously consider whether you should continue to use the playing field, or find an alternative flying site, either at a club or with the permission of the landowner. Frankly, for £34 a year, is it worth the risk to not be insured? Wherever you fly, legitimately or otherwise, there is absolutely nothing to guarantee that you won't have a flyaway one day - and the model could end up anywhere, causing all sorts of mayhem.... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Tee Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Posted by M ouse on 16/07/2013 17:58:55: Hi all As a fledgling flyer and a very new member to this site i have read this thread with great interest and i have a question or two, is the bmfa the only place to get cover or can i get it from else ware as I am never keen to give my hard earned to a monopoly that can set the cost as to what they think is acceptable and could i make a claim for accidental damage to my own plain ect the same as fully comp car insurance. Yes you can get your own insurance, last time i checked cost was around £11 - £20 which I would think is more then your paying through the BMFA. But the BMFA does a lot more then provide insurance. When i learnt to fly there were many sites we could use, most were non club just a few keen modellers and a friendly agreement on frequency control. Noise complaints resulted in almost all of these sites having model flying banned. The few left were protected by forming clubs, affiliating with the BMFA and had heavy restrictions imposed on flying times/days but they are still in use which they probably would not be if the BMFA had not been involved. The site where i learnt to fly is now open only 2 days a week Sundays and Wednesdays from 09:00 to 16:00 and has recently had a complete ban on IC imposed. Yet if you have a neighbour who's dog barks most of the day and half the night you can't get anything done. Peter Christy: I think it very unlikely the government would get involved in any form of licensing for model flying in the event of a public incident, there's simply not enough money in it for them. Far more likely they would impose a blanket ban. Edited By Rick Tee on 17/07/2013 07:47:27 Edited By Rick Tee on 17/07/2013 07:48:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winco Steve Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Hi Guy's, I'm not going to repeat anything already here. I will not fly, or fly with anyone, who does not have adequate insurance. Read the attached link and consider why it is,or could be, so important. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-177139/Teenager-killed-hit-model-plane.html Regards to all, Winco Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearair Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 I started this thread to give a reel world example of what actually happened to me when hit by an un-insured flyer. It has ended up with squabbles about the BMFA and arguing on tiny points of little or no significance. To often this happens with toy aeroplanes for my taste. No-one needed to call anyone idiots and what the above tragic death has to do with insurance is beyond me. If anyone thinks that any amount of money could replace the loss of a child, or ease the conscience of the model flyer who caused that death then they are sadly mistaken. IMHO a debate requires that people have an open mind and consider the arguments of others carefully, when it deteriorates into a succession of mantra's it is useless. Does anyone really think that you will influence people by calling them names?! Mr moderators I think this thread should now be locked. As for me, well I feel that the type of people who fly model aeroplanes has changed dramatically in the last 10 years and the RC community is not one I have any wish to be associated with anymore. Roger Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/07/2013 11:54:24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winco Steve Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I presume that the reference to name calling was not pointed in my direction? I would not stoop to that level in this forum. The question 'what the tragic death has to do with insurance' is that it indicates that, albeit rarely, serious (in this case fatal) consequences can occur whist engaged in our hobby. Does it really need to be questioned that no amount of money can compensate either party in this tragic affair? Of course not. The wider point is that we live in a litigious society where people will seek compensation. If an individual were to be seriously injured then any claim sought may well be used in obtaining the best and most appropriate medical attention for the injured party. I, certainly, could not afford a hefty medical claim against me and would feel far more comfortable knowing that any expenses were likely to be met by insurance. You pays yer money and takes yer chances! Regards, Winco Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Unfortunately accidents, sometimes tragic, happen. That's life. Insurance is not mandatory in far more dangerous pastimes, why pick on RC? I have insurance......Rich Edited By Dickster on 17/07/2013 12:35:21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Its not mandatory in R/C either Dickster, so I don't think its being pick on in that sense. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 No, I mean in the thread - I also think it depends what you fly. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avtur Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 It may be a matter of choice, rather than mandate, to have insurance. However for the cost of it (which I would say is very modest) then to have the cover and the peace of mind afforded by it - well for me at least its a no-brainer As a home owner I would imagine that in the worst case scenario I could be sued for damages and a claim made against the value of my home ... and especially these days with all these no win-no fee solicitors looking to make money out of peoples suffering. I don't even want to think about, far easier to stump up a few pounds a year for an insurance policy to cover that risk .... I just like things simple!! Edited By avtur on 17/07/2013 13:41:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Back at the millenium, when I stoped PPL flying, it was not a requirement to have insurance on a light aircraft and IIRC our group didn't have it. Just a thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Posted by GONZO on 17/07/2013 14:11:50: Back at the millenium, when I stoped PPL flying, it was not a requirement to have insurance on a light aircraft and IIRC our group didn't have it. Just a thought! So if your aircraft damaged another on the airfield then the group would be personnaly liable or just the pilot at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 It never happend so dont know. It was a farm strip with no radio/ATC/ground control, just the mark 1 eyeball, and aircraft there were PFA. The U/C got badly damaged once by one of the group members, never found out who. The group paid for and did the repairs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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