No model Flying in the Cardiff area 3-5 Sep 14

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

As Ollie explained, and I know he comes from a related background, this is more about control of airspace than the threat of a model based attack.

I would be supportive of an action which clearly protected against a specific threat but I don't believe that this blanket ban is clearly justified. I don't fly within 150 miles of the location so this isn't a ban which has any (short term) effect on me personally but I worry that what is "reasonable" and affecting very few modellers in this case, could be used as justification for eroding the availability of airspace for the majority in the future. Far from being hysterical scare-mongering, I believe John's logical extension to the protection of high profile figures has some validity. You only have to look at the aftermath of the Dunblane tragedy to see how legitimate users of sporting equipment can be affected by well-intentioned but draconian legislation.

Far from being a whinge, I feel that this should serve as a wake-up call to the model flying community. Our case will not be strengthened by people ignoring what is a legally imposed restriction though, so I'd urge Steve's friend to reconsider any deliberate flouting of this ban.

[Steve Houghton 1]

I guess there are going to be a few individuals who will not know about the "no fly zone". I for one would not have known if it hadn't been posted on this forum. I haven't heard about it on the local TV news, which, lets face it, is the medium in which most of us receive our local news information.

I know a couple of guys who rarely go on line and probably would not have known if I hadn't have told them, and if they don't buy a local news paper, as I don't, and we are not members of any model flying club, then they have to rely on word of mouth.

The valley villages and towns of S Wales can be quite remote and news travels slowly outside of Cardiff & Newport.

[Dai Fledermaus]

Don't make it sound as if we live in the back of beyond Steve. Electric lights, curtains, we've got it all you know.

Seriously, it was on BBC Wales news last week and someone at Cardiff MAC mentioned it last weekend, so word should have got around by now.

[Olly P]

Posted by Budgie Daz on 14/08/2014 18:56:32:

Posted by Olly P on 14/08/2014 14:28:52:

I can't say much more but this is only done for good reason becasue it does actually cost a lot of money to do.

If you wish to discuss more please PM me.

Olly

I sincerely hope that you are not breaching the Official Secrets Act, Olly?

Nope, sticking only to stuff in the public domain. Being very careful about that.

I just don't want to put some stuff already in public domain (if you know where to look/how to look/use google onto an easy to read page, and it will bore the pants off most people.

AD is a dangerous and complex business - this sort of measure is intended to prevent errors and issues with engaging incorrect targets - just look at ukraine....

I do have a personnal anecdote about this sort of thing if anyone wants to hear it. I'm not AD specialist BTW, I do however have an understanding of AD operations having worked in a related field for a number of years...

[Steve Houghton 1]

Posted by Colin Ashman on 15/08/2014 12:14:42:

Don't make it sound as if we live in the back of beyond Steve. Electric lights, curtains, we've got it all you know.

Seriously, it was on BBC Wales news last week and someone at Cardiff MAC mentioned it last weekend, so word should have got around by now.

Colin ...... I must have been out flying when they showed that on BBC Wales

Are you a member of Cardiff MAC? My GF lives 2 mins away from their field, which I was eyeing up longingly last Sunday as I'm looking for a nice, big, open field to fly my gliders from. I've found a field close to wear I live in Newport but haven't been able to locate the owner yet. I want it for flying my thermal soarers and DLG glider from, and launching a 2.5m glider with a hi start is a bit awkward from a powered flying field, although the adjacent field with the big shed at the top of it would do nicely too.

[Steve Houghton 1]

And talking of "No Fly Zones", here's the latest map of the USA showing where our American cousins may not be able to fly drones or unmanned fixed wing aircraft in future.

https://www.mapbox.com/blog/dont-fly-here/

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by GrahamC on 15/08/2014 10:13:58:

Its only three days...

And as for those who say "stuff em and fly anyway...." 2.4g / 35mhz jamming equipment is surely not beyond the wit of those responsible for national security.

Cough, the old 27Mhz was routinely jammed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland (late 70's early 80'2) most foot patrols carried a small dry cell jammer that gave a jammed zone of about 100ft radius, there were (and almost certainly still are) a range of different jammer's issued depending on the threat assessment for the locality was, they used to be called "xxxx Jokers" where xxx was a colour, the colour changed depending on the target frequency.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Steve Houghton 1 on 15/08/2014 14:46:51:

And talking of "No Fly Zones", here's the latest map of the USA showing where our American cousins may not be able to fly drones or unmanned fixed wing aircraft in future.

https://www.mapbox.com/blog/dont-fly-here/

For the benefit of those knocking "scaremongering" John - the map shows at least a 30 mile radius no fly zone around Washington DC...

[Dai Fledermaus]

Posted by Steve Houghton 1 on 15/08/2014 13:57:54:

Posted by Colin Ashman on 15/08/2014 12:14:42:

Don't make it sound as if we live in the back of beyond Steve. Electric lights, curtains, we've got it all you know.

Seriously, it was on BBC Wales news last week and someone at Cardiff MAC mentioned it last weekend, so word should have got around by now.

Colin ...... I must have been out flying when they showed that on BBC Wales

Are you a member of Cardiff MAC? My GF lives 2 mins away from their field, which I was eyeing up longingly last Sunday as I'm looking for a nice, big, open field to fly my gliders from. I've found a field close to wear I live in Newport but haven't been able to locate the owner yet. I want it for flying my thermal soarers and DLG glider from, and launching a 2.5m glider with a hi start is a bit awkward from a powered flying field, although the adjacent field with the big shed at the top of it would do nicely too.

 

Not yet a member Steve but planning to join. There was someone there this afternoon with a large powered glider in the air but sorry l don't know what it was. Gliders are his thing apparently. They are a very friendly bunch I have to say

 

 

Edited By Colin Ashman on 15/08/2014 20:40:35

[John Privett]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 15/08/2014 09:25:26:

John, I think that's a rather hysterical bit of scare-mongering - as I'm sure you know full well..... TBH, I'm surprised - you normally tend to make rational, well-considered posts....

Hysterical scare-mongering? Possibly, though that wasn't my intention. It just seems to me that - to the mind of the typical politician at least - it's a fairly small step from the restrictions imposed for NATO to what I pondered on. This has the potential to be the thin end of a very large wedge.

My main issues are the size of the zone and the fact that it covers models <7kg - unlike the Olympics ban. I will declare a personal interest, in that a ban such as my tongue-in-cheek suggestion would wipe out my club overnight. And my local slopes would be no-fly zones too. I'll also confess to having been a pistol (and rifle) shooter in the past - so I have little faith in the government applying restrictions to sports that are sensible, well thought out and proportionate.

So if some see me as hysterical it's only out of concern at what this could lead to...

[graeme jones]

Just received an email from club sec. confirming that no flying will be allowed on the 3-5/09. We are only 2-3 miles from the Celtic Manor so it sort of makes sense, but 23 miles is nonsensical. There is provision in the banning document to apply to the local police for "permission to fly", but I think we can all guess what the answer would be!

The M4 in South Wales will be restricted to just one lane for the duration and many local roads which could otherwise be used to get to our field will be closed for a week. As our club sec. said, let's hope all the bad weather in September occurs that week.

Graeme

[Pete B]

I know it'll probably be little consolation for the loss of 3 days flying but I see a NATO flypast has been fixed up for the Friday morning...... a momentary diversion for those stuck in the traffic jams, perhaps?

The RAF’s Red Arrows will be joined by aircraft from across the NATO alliance for the flypast over the summit at the Celtic Manor resort on Friday 5 September at 9am.

Local residents in Cardiff should head to Cardiff Bay at 8.30am for the best view of the planes.

In Newport people should be ready to watch the display at 8.45am as it passes south of the City Centre, over Spytty Park, Beechwood Park and Lliswerry.

Pete

[John Tee]

On holiday at Brean in Somerset for the annual model fest. Flying is split over 2 sites. The beach site is fractionally outside the NFZ and can fly Weds/Thurs the last two days of the holiday but the golf course site is fractionally inside the zone so can't fly for the last 2 days. Both are a matter of a few hundred yards either way, still there are other things to do as I dont fancy the beach site myself but may go and watch. Did se a Dakota fly over us this morning and two lots of 4/5 fighters came round twice. Often see air sea rescue craft in the area.

John

Edited By John Tee on 31/08/2014 21:29:37

[ROY DAVIES 1]

Let's be adults and abide by the rules only for a few days. I love slope soaring and all aspects of the hobby but it would be quite a surprise to find a helicopter patrolling with a tracker hovering over you and a fine and a confiscation the result. Read the papers watch the news these are dangerous days and the terrorists out there would love a coup. And remember these fanatics don't care about coming out alive after an attack. I would and no doubt you would too.

Edited for language - BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 31/08/2014 22:16:37

[Steve Houghton 1]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 31/08/2014 10:45:56:

I know it'll probably be little consolation for the loss of 3 days flying but I see a NATO flypast has been fixed up for the Friday morning...... a momentary diversion for those stuck in the traffic jams, perhaps?

The RAF’s Red Arrows will be joined by aircraft from across the NATO alliance for the flypast over the summit at the Celtic Manor resort on Friday 5 September at 9am.

Local residents in Cardiff should head to Cardiff Bay at 8.30am for the best view of the planes.

In Newport people should be ready to watch the display at 8.45am as it passes south of the City Centre, over Spytty Park, Beechwood Park and Lliswerry.

Pete

Where do you get this info? I live in Newport and watch the local tv news and have heard nothing of this

[Steve Houghton 1]

Well I've been out flying the slopes of SE Wales this weekend, and many of the people I have spoken to have heard nothing about a ban on model flying on Thursday & Friday, that was until I told them.

Apparently the M4 between the Brynglas Tunnels, (J26) and J24, the Coldra are to be restricted to one lane for the duration of the summit. I have to use that stretch every day to go to and from work and it's slow enough with two lanes open, so this is going to be a nightmare.

My boss has agreed that I can start work at 7am and finish at 3:30pm to help my commute to Bristol, however I doubt very much that this is going to help me much. Roll on next Monday!

Not a happy bunny!

[Pete B]

Posted by Steve Houghton 1 on 31/08/2014 22:14:49:

Where do you get this info? I live in Newport and watch the local tv news and have heard nothing of this

That was an MoD press release, Steve - it'll probably be picked up by your local rag and they'll print it for the Friday edition. Oh, wait a minute,,,,,,,,

Pete

[graeme jones]

I'm amazed there hasn't been a bigger response to this. If football, golf or fishing was banned for three days over an area of 1662 square miles there would be "riots in the streets". What will happen to all those flyers who don't know about the ban? Was this originally supposed to include models or did the BMFA do us all a dis-service by "checking"?

Any hope that it wouldn't matter 'cos the weather will be lousy has been dealt a blow by ex-hurricane Christobel bringing warm, sunny weather with light winds to this area for, you guessed it, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. That's if the forecast pans out of course, which it often doesn't.

Bearing in mind the probable M4 chaos, I'll be heading north for the duration. I'll only have to drive for an hour to get outside the exclusion zone!

Graeme

[Steve Houghton 1]

I am guessing Graeme that BMFA affiliated clubs will have been advised of the ban and that info passed onto the club members, rather than assuming that everyone looks at the BMFA website on a daily/weekly basis for any info about whatever.

Myself, and my flying buddies are not members of any club. Mostly because most clubs do not cater for us glider guiders and that our flying sites cover a huge area, from slope to slope depending on wind direction. There are two of us who regularly use this web site and forum but non of the others do, prefering to use BARCS. I don't know whether BARCS has notified their members but I would not have known about the ban if I had not read about it on here, and my mates who use BARCS seem ignorant to the fact.

I doubt very much if any slope flyer would be caught, or even spotted, flying on the ban days considering the remote locations of our flying sites, although I think they would very surprised if an Apache helicopter suddenly appeared, hovering in front of them. "Put the transmitter down and put your hands in the air, you're under arrest".

[graeme jones]

Steve - don't be too surprised. The security services will no doubt be looking to justify the expense of their operations, not to mention their existence. Having said that, if, say, 100 flyers carry on as normal within the area (South Wales, Bristol etc.) and fly because the weather's good and they haven't heard of the ban, what will happen? Will someone be blamed e.g. the government for not giving enough notice and publicity, the BMFA or the individual. Worth remembering that ignorance of a law is no defence if you break it!

Graeme

[John F]

Posted by graeme jones on 01/09/2014 15:27:05:

Steve - don't be too surprised. The security services will no doubt be looking to justify the expense of their operations, not to mention their existence.

I am sure that the security services have much more important things to do than annoy hobby model flyers to "justify the expense" of watching out for terrorists.

[Pete B]

Posted by graeme jones on 01/09/2014 15:27:05:

Steve - don't be too surprised. The security services will no doubt be looking to justify the expense of their operations, not to mention their existence.

I don't doubt that they are justifying their existence, day in and day out, Graeme - but the GBP rarely get to hear of it...

Pete

[graeme jones]

John F - I'm already annoyed.

Pete B - why don't we hear about it? This is a democracy isn't it?

Graeme

[Pete B]

Simple - neither you, I nor the majority of the great unwashed need to know anything about it - the clue is in the word 'security'.

It's not a game - as I fear we may find out soon enough......

Pete

[ROY DAVIES 1]

Subject: Re: New Forum Post On Model Flying

I am not a bringer of fear and trembling but, Pete' I agree with you.

Everybody should do their part and bear with the situation as is at the moment. Just trust that those in charge have all the bases covered which includes our hobby, the one I have been involved with 63 YEARS on and off. Patience is acquired over the years and tolerance too. We have a great hobby with all the wizardry in the world to help us make it easier to enjoy each day, ( Maybe that is the problem, 'Easy' lets show we can be patient and sit it out for a few days.