No model Flying in the Cardiff area 3-5 Sep 14

[fly boy3]

Here you go Steve Cheers. **LINK**

[Steve Houghton 1]

Cheers FB3, there has still been nothing about it on tonights TV news program.

[Andrew Russell 2]

We had the same blanket ban in Northern Ireland as well during the g8 you couldn't fly as a kite legally. But there is no practical way to enforce it. It just gives the authority's the right to give u a big fine should they stumble upon you.

[John F]

Posted by graeme jones on 01/09/2014 18:01:43:

John F - I'm already annoyed.

Pete B - why don't we hear about it? This is a democracy isn't it?

Graeme

Why are you annoyed Graeme? You just need to take stock of the reasons for the ban accept it and move on.

The reason why we don't hear anything about the security services and their activities are that we don't need to know.

Democracy does not mean that everything is public knowledge but, to be honest, a simple check of the broadsheets will give you ideas of what goes on; there are cyber threats, terrorism and espionage every day, the thing is we don't know about most of it and what it brought to light gets buried within the other newsworthy stories such as Kim Kardashian has three extra peas on her plate this evening.

I am in the RAF and we get some briefings on what goes on, even the tiny amount we get told just highlights what the Security Services do to protect us in the background.

This might give you an idea what goes on.

**LINK**

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Isn't causing alarm and disruption to normal life one of the aims of terrorists?

[John F]

Just like SWMBO Martin

[avtur]

Given the global focus on this event perhaps there will be some benefit in bringing Wales/Cardiff to the attention of the world via the international media. It's certainly a chance to raise the profile of Wales and it's culture. (and I'm not even Welsh !)

I don't doubt the disruption to daily life for thousands of local people but hopefully there will a longer term payback. The scale of the operation is enormous, 9,500 police, 1,500 from the media, 25,000 extra rail passengers, the 12 mile ring of steel.

Even in the short term a lot of extra money will be spent in the local economy, certainly the airport will get a welcome boost in trade and I'm sure there will be other benefits.

Avtur - optimist dept.

Edited By avtur on 03/09/2014 14:05:19

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

and I'm sure there will be other benefits.

...like the flying of model aircraft has become more recognised as just another nuisance activity that needs to be strictly controlled or banned to make policing high profile events easier?

Isn't this where the BMFA needs to be seen to be making a case to accommodate model flying within a reasonable security policy?  For example, a model flying club operating from an established field should be no more of a hazard to aerial navigation than a fixed mast or wind farm and unless there's the unlikely event that a model strays from the location, activity is a known factor in the AD picture.

Edited By Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:50:57

[Pete B]

Posted by Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:40:17:

Isn't this where the BMFA needs to be seen to be making a case to accommodate model flying within a reasonable security policy? For example, a model flying club operating from an established field should be no more of a hazard to aerial navigation than a fixed mast or wind farm and unless there's the unlikely event that a model strays from the location, activity is a known factor in the AD picture.

Far easier to pick up something incoming on a clear screen, Martin - and the fixed mast is unlikely to jump up and launch itself javelin-fashion at the venue, nor will the wind farms suddenly start marching across fields, War of the Worlds-fashion, either!

Pete

[John F]

Posted by Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:40:17:

and I'm sure there will be other benefits.

...like the flying of model aircraft has become more recognised as just another nuisance activity that needs to be strictly controlled or banned to make policing high profile events easier?

Isn't this where the BMFA needs to be seen to be making a case to accommodate model flying within a reasonable security policy? For example, a model flying club operating from an established field should be no more of a hazard to aerial navigation than a fixed mast or wind farm and unless there's the unlikely event that a model strays from the location, activity is a known factor in the AD picture.

Edited By Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:50:57

This is the problem though, Martin;

The NATO conference would involve a large number of member states sending very important folk to talk about security concerns that affect the world. This involves short notice flights, both fixed wing and rotary, ferrying dignitaries and security specialists to and from the area. The police also need to keep these folk safe so that would involve short notice flights, both fixed wing and rotary, watching and covering the airspace around the venue.

Is it really too much to tell folk to not fly a model aircraft under these circumstances?

The chances of airstrikes are small but can be absolutely devastating and if you have many aircraft operating in these areas, covering a conference that is discussing worldwide issues, should they not take precedent? Why should we think we have any sway in the security concerns of a conference because of our hobby?

The chances of aircraft, both full size and model, being used as weapons cannot be ruled out so is it really too much to ask folk to just avoid activities during this time period so that the security services have an easier time of providing security?

Edited By John F on 03/09/2014 15:11:40

Edited By John F on 03/09/2014 15:12:36

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 03/09/2014 15:05:18:

Posted by Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:40:17:

Isn't this where the BMFA needs to be seen to be making a case to accommodate model flying within a reasonable security policy? For example, a model flying club operating from an established field should be no more of a hazard to aerial navigation than a fixed mast or wind farm and unless there's the unlikely event that a model strays from the location, activity is a known factor in the AD picture.

Far easier to pick up something incoming on a clear screen, Martin - and the fixed mast is unlikely to jump up and launch itself javelin-fashion at the venue, nor will the wind farms suddenly start marching across fields, War of the Worlds-fashion, either!

Pete

Sorry Pete, but I can't accept that reasoning. The only hazard in that case is from the terrorist "missile" and he won't be worried by the model flying ban. I completely understand the clear screen policy and can see how an object transiting the area would complicate matters but an RC model operation is essentially a fixed object extending a few hundred yards radius from the take-off point. Your "javelin" is no more or less a threat wherever it originates.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by John F on 03/09/2014 15:08:49:

Posted by Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:40:17:

and I'm sure there will be other benefits.

...like the flying of model aircraft has become more recognised as just another nuisance activity that needs to be strictly controlled or banned to make policing high profile events easier?

Isn't this where the BMFA needs to be seen to be making a case to accommodate model flying within a reasonable security policy? For example, a model flying club operating from an established field should be no more of a hazard to aerial navigation than a fixed mast or wind farm and unless there's the unlikely event that a model strays from the location, activity is a known factor in the AD picture.

Edited By Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 14:50:57

This is the problem though, Martin;

The NATO conference would involve a large number of member states sending very important folk to talk about security concerns that affect the world. This involves short notice flights, both fixed wing and rotary, ferrying dignitaries and security specialists to and from the area. The police also need to keep these folk safe so that would involve short notice flights, both fixed wing and rotary, watching and covering the airspace around the venue.

Is it really too much to tell folk to not fly a model aircraft under these circumstances?

The chances of airstrikes are small but can be absolutely devastating and if you have many aircraft operating in these areas, covering a conference that is discussing worldwide issues, should they not take precedent? Why should we think we have any sway in the security concerns of a conference because of our hobby?

The chances of aircraft, both full size and model, being used as weapons cannot be ruled out so is it really too much to ask folk to just avoid activities during this time period so that the security services have an easier time of providing security?

Edited By John F on 03/09/2014 15:11:40

Edited By John F on 03/09/2014 15:12:36

You're missing my point John. If clubs operate reasonably far from the location (I'm not advocating model flying off the golf course!) low level flight planning should negate any risk. In the real world, it's mainly clubs which will be aware of flight restrictions anyway and little Johnny will be just as likely to fly from his neighbour's field, being unaware of the ban. Do you really mean to tell me that high level dignitaries will be flown on unplanned routes and times at their whim?

[John F]

Posted by Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 15:25:57:

Do you really mean to tell me that high level dignitaries will be flown on unplanned routes and times at their whim?

Not on their whim but at irregular times, yes. Not only that but the Police and security services would need access to check out an area which would definately classify as unplanned route and random times.

Little Billy with his little heli in his back garden won't have a clue about the flying restrictions but would it not be best to inform as many folk as possible, using known routes such as model aircraft clubs and associations than no-one at all?

More info and an excellent map is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-28705222

 

Edited By John F on 03/09/2014 16:00:53

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

To try to put my points better, I have full support for ensuring the safety of the participants but I am worried that acceptance of model flying as a security risk will be seized on by the fun police and nimbys as justification for ongoing curbs on our freedom to fly. I could see some logic behind the >7kg ruling close to the Olympics and I do appreciate that there's a feeling that control will be easier if model flying is banned - but isn't that just what worries me?

Isn't the point of holding a conference to get all the participants in the same place - even if the same results could be achieved by teleconferencing in this day and age. Are dignitaries going to be extensively ferried in ones or twos by a far more inherently hazardous method than coordinated group travel? Surely the risks of equipment failure over multiple journeys far outweigh those of well protected and planned group travel by land?

Will we have a national ban on model flying during election campaigns next? It really isn't a massive step...

[John F]

But that, Martin, is an irrational fear based on nothing more than pure guestimation. How could a model aircraft ban for a NATO conference result in another ban later down the line for no reason on the basis of "well, it's been banned before"?

The transport of dignitaries and specialists en masse, from a security point of view, is the biggest and largest no-no around. You simply don't put all the eggs in one basket. Basic security. Not everyone will be flown around anyway but the security will be both ground and air based.

[Dai Fledermaus]

I was hoping to go to the Cardiff MAC field on Friday whilst the weather holds, now I can't, but it's not a big deal is it? I don't imagine the members of Gaer Park, Cardiff MAC and the few other clubs affected are getting too worked up about it

Edited By Colin Ashman on 03/09/2014 16:34:22

[ROY DAVIES 1]

Martin the conference will be over before your rant is over. Regarding clubs as responsible bodies. Are all your members responsible? some club members in some clubs certainly aren't. Look at Utube and see type who like nothing better than buying and crashing models ! When upon the slope flying combat you can sometimes see it come through. I am sure that there are some that are a little repressed as members and could be absolute idiots on their own. Just look at the news it's and idiot that walked the streets of this country as a so called citizen a few weeks ago that is creating panic in the world as a member of a group. Relax and do some of those repairs to the broken models it will be back to normal soon.

[Pete B]

Posted by Martin Harris on 03/09/2014 15:59:34:

I could see some logic behind the >7kg ruling close to the Olympics and I do appreciate that there's a feeling that control will be easier if model flying is banned - but isn't that just what worries me?

Will we have a national ban on model flying during election campaigns next? It really isn't a massive step...

I really do think that that is such an unlikely proposition that it can be completely disregarded, Martin. This conference is an exceptional one-off, with some attendees who are likely to be at much greater risk of attack than our own politicians and for whom such stringent measures in their own country would be considered the norm. For this to occur on UK territory would be a diplomatic gaffe of the highest order.

There is no such thing as 'total security' - the authorities can only take such measures as to minimise the risk to an acceptable level.

Forgive me if it seems like thread-drift but a bit of history might help. It comes down, in part, to the public, Press and legal questioning of authority and the quality of investigation of crime back in the 90's. For an investigation to be seen as complete and thorough, the defence would often not be satisfied with what avenues and lines of enquiry the Police had pursued but also what they had not pursued - and, in Court, the Police were frequently presented with failure to pursue a particular line of investigation as grounds for acquittal.

As a result, Police investigations became far wider-ranging, time-consuming and more expensive than hitherto, with as much effort put into elimination as to implication. That is why, for example, you now find motorways closed for many hours whilst an investigation into a fatal road traffic accident takes place - they are all now effectively treated as a murder scene until satisfied otherwise, regardless of just how obvious the cause might seem to be.

The same criteria will be applied to any security operation by those responsible - they will cover EVERY eventuality, no matter how remote the possibility, for if they are found to have not covered one aspect, heads will roll. That is why every void, duct, lamppost and sewer in the area will have been physically checked by now.

Unfortunately for us and our hobby, RC model aircraft DO pose an unlikely, but feasible, avenue of attack for a terrorist, whether we like it or not. That is why they are now part of the equation and an aspect which has to be 'boxed-off'.

Besides, even if your club was permitted to fly within the area, in the event of an attack by a radio-controlled device, I suspect your day might be ruined anyway, with the counter-measures which might possibly be employed.....

Pete

[kc]

They stopped flying for the Olympics and now this. They blocked roads for so called VIP's at the Olympics and now they are doing that again. It's the thin end of the wedge. The public should protest and not accept road closures for such purposes.

[Pete B]

I think they closed a few roads for the Coronation, too - Victoria's, I mean...

Pete

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

My you go back a bit Pete, you're very good for your age

John

[Pete B]

Aw, shucks, that's what many of my friends say, John....

Pete

[avtur]

I give up !>>

I made a post trying to be 'optimistic' about the big picture around this NATO event in Cardiff. >>

NATO is valuable to all of us ... they (NATO) want to hold a meeting ... well yes it will cause some inconvenience to some people where ever they hold the meeting ... but the big picture (IMHO) it has to be worthwhile.>>

I feel sorry for those who are inconvenienced by the event but for the ‘greater good’ I feel it is worthwhile; I am sure that most of those folks who are inconvenienced will feel the same and they will ride this short storm. I have family in Cardiff I know full well the extent of the local problems this event will cause. I also know many folks who will directly benefit from the hosting of this event. >>

I have no doubt that Wales will benefit from the global publicity attracted by this event, there is a tremendous history and culture in Wales which I am sure will spark the imagination of people around the world as a result of this event. That will be good for Wales and good for the UK.>>

I fully support the choice of Celtic Manor as the venue for this meeting and I have no problem at all with the necessary security arrangements around this choice. I think we should be proud that this (UK) venue has been chosen for such a high level meeting. >>

If a ‘few’ people have to give up a small amount of freedom to support such an event surely that is a small price to pay to allow our democratically elected leaders to meet. >>

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by ROY DAVIES 1 on 03/09/2014 16:58:31:

Martin the conference will be over before your rant is over. ----. Relax and do some of those repairs to the broken models it will be back to normal soon.

I wasn't expecting such a condescending reply. I'm not ranting - the closure doesn't affect me directly, I'm intending flying quite legally tomorrow with some of my many serviceable models and I'm simply pointing out that this sort of blanket ban could conceivably lead to more extensive restrictions on our hobby if allowed to go unchallenged.

I would readily acknowledge that human life is far more important than any hobby but that shouldn't prevent me expressing an opinion over possible ramifications of meekly accepting the principle of banning a legal activity whenever a greater good is perceived.

John - I do appreciate that putting all your eggs in one basket can be disastrous - you only have to look at the Mull of Kintyre accident for evidence of that - and that highlights the hazards of non-scheduled air travel even without terrorist involvement. Few security decisions can ever be clear cut, there will always be a balance of considerations.

[Dave Hopkin]

Look at it this way, when dealing with terrorism the security services have to be lucky every time, the terrorist only has to be lucky once... creating a clear skies picture over the area will reduce the number of false alarms generated leaving the security services better placed to focus on any real threat.

Given the current situation in Syria and Iraq, which has prompted the National Security level to be raised to "Imminent" and the prominence of the NATO conference it really will be a very attractive target