Encouraging Improvers

[Masher]

I think I am in the 'Improvers' category as I have held the 'A' cert for approaching two years, fly 'Ok' and continually try to improve. I do get help from my club but it is a little informal and at the moment I seem to be the only one of 50 who seems interested in getting to'B' standard.

I read in Peter Jenkins' thread on improving aerobatics (my favourite thread!) that only 10% of BMFA members hold a 'B"............ so to my question(s)!

I was wandering if your club has any schemes for encouraging members to take the 'B' ? Our club is 'Ok' at teaching newcomers to fly and maybe go to the 'A' but then it stops.

My second question is, if you are experienced and already hold a 'B', is there a natural reluctance to instruct others to do it? It seems that way for some/various reasons - perhaps it is just too demanding time and patience wise?

I have fortunately got help from our clubs 'best' flyer who is helping when available but even he seems indifferent towards the 'B'. I realise passing a test doesn't mean everything, but for some of us it's nice to reach milestones or goals in our progression.

Sorry for the ramble, but look forward to some replies from which I can (or otherwise) make suggestions to our club committee.

Martin

[Ultymate]

At my local club (Rhyl & District) we have a relatively high number of pilots with a "B" possibly around 30% of our membership. Most were "driven" to do so by by the desire to fly at displays or compete at IMAC comps or to fly models over 7Kg in weight. On the other hand none of our members to date have as yet stepped up to do the "C" test, which leads me to the conclusion that there has to be some driving motive to attain the said qualification, rather than doing it just for the sake of doing it.

All that said setting oneself a target/milestone is never a bad thing as it makes you practice and learn things which inevitably take you outside your comfort zone and improve the standard of your flying. Most of our "B"pilots are only too willing to share their expertise with pilots wishing to take their "B" although as I say without some ulterior motive it appears to be a rare occurrence.

[Chris Jones 7]

Hi Martin,

I'm in the same position as you, I'd like to do the B test and think I am close to the standard required but struggle getting anyone to check that what im doing is right.

Our club is very busy with teaching beginners all the time so I find the best thing is to ask for help on the individual exercise that I'm practicing/ struggling with. But, on the whole, I would say there is very little incentive or encouragement to do the B test. Only reason I'm doing it is so that I can fly at our local club show and to maybe pop to the odd competition to see what it's all about.

[Cuban8]

Firstly, the BMFA 'A' and 'B' tests are part of the achievement scheme, although most clubs use them as a convenient standard for flying solo or displaying in front of the public at fetes etc. I've heard some refer to the 'A' and 'B' licence, this is wrong and not what the achievement scheme is about.

I also believe it's wrong to label the 'B' test solely as a test of aerobatic prowess as without the corresponding experience and knowledge to answer the quite searching questions after the flying part, then a failure will be the result.

Learning to fly an accurate 'B' schedule is not difficult and as you're aware, consists of basic rolls, loops and spins together with demonstrating the ability to fly accurate circuits all within a reasonably confined area in front of the pilot. I'd suggest that a 'B' holder in your club gives a demonstration of what's required - for a bit of fun have a copy of the schedule to hand and those watching give him marks out of 10. This will mean that those watching will have to do their home work and put some thought into what a good loop etc should look like.

As an examiner in our club, I know that less than 20% of our members (about 20) have progressed to 'B' standard and can only assume that the majority of flyers attain their 'A' and are happy with that so they can fly without supervision. When attempts to encourage interest in the 'B' have been put forward, the reaction is often one of putting people under undue pressure or even the club becoming officious, so care needs to be taken so as to not put the wrong signals out.

Keep it low key and those that are interested will make themselves known.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Ours is around 20% as has been said most have done it to fly at shows or to enter competition flying.

We have held days with Examiners promoting the A + B test but the turnout was poor. The ones who wish to take it always speak up and they also get encouragement from the Examiners as you see them progressing.

The desire to fly at shows or compete pushes people to improve to B standard and that is a positive thing

John

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

As the one who keeps the records (!) I can tell you that in our club out of 60 members, 11 have a B cert. So that's about 18%

We have given this matter a bit of thought - how to encourage more members to try the B - because we believe that the achievement scheme improves the standard of flying generally and enhances people's enjoyment of the hobby.

One factor we came up against was a view that the jump in standard between what was required to pass an A cert and what was required in the B cert was perhaps a bit large and daunting.

To try to solve this we have put a new intermediate test in place. We actually nicked the idea from our friends in a neighbouring club! The scheme is called the "Wings Award" and the standard is designed to be halfway between a A-cert and a B-cert and as such its intended as a "stepping stone" between the two. It provides something for the recent A-cert pilot to aim for which is achievable in a realistic time span. It also gives the aspiring B-cert candidate a preparatory phase - a sort of "lead-up" to the B itself. And final it raises the profile of achievement schemes generally.

Obviously it has absolutely no status what so ever outside of our club and it gives holders no particular privileges. But it does do the job of bring "improving" pilots on in their flying and gives them something to aim for.

BEB

[Masher]

Thanks very much for the replies so far, there are some interesting points made. It is a very fine balance between pushing and encouraging and everyone is different. I have noticed in our club, and in every club I expect, that even the simplest of topics can cause massively diverging views!

I may be unusual in that I have no desire to fly at shows or compete but I still need to see constructive progression - it's the engineer in me.

I don't actually know how many B's there are in our club, I think it may only be 4/50 but I will find out.

I really like the suggestion of getting an existing B holder to demonstrate the schedule - I think this may result in silence but again, I will ask!

[Masher]

Thanks BEB, we crossed posts. The intermediate level seems a good idea because it probably removes a lot of the nerves problems associated with a "proper" test. I think more of our members would be interested in that.

[Cuban8]

I'd like to see an A+ achievement for the club flyer that encompasses the flying parts of the B but without the need to have an in-depth knowledge of the rules and regs required for performing at shows, which quite honestly, very few club members have any interest in anyway.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I take your point C8 but the rules and regs of show flying are not what a B test is about for me, its an higher standard of flying and a good standard of safety all round, you don't need to know the show rules to achieve this. To fly at shows need you to commit to learning what's expected of you though.

John

[Lindsay Todd]

As a member of the same club as Beb we have always tried to encourage progress and the clubs own Wings scheme that has been put in place was certainly with that concept in mind although I believe it's uptake has been slow. As one of the clubs examiners I believe it is indeed the adoption of the scheme as a status to fly solo and then the percieved status of being able to fly at shows is one reason why we have this situation. With many clubs using the A cert as a basis for minimum standard for flying solo then the uptake is consistent with the requirement. With the B being largely and incorrectly percieved as for 'show pilots' then the need to attain is only driven by the desire to participate in such events and not generally pursued as a mark of competance that has only a personal sense of achievment. The C test seems to be even more so of this case further hindered by the organisation of suitably qualified examiners to carry out the test. It has been my experience that most feel that unless the standard offers some personal benefit then desire or need is pretty limited. It's a fine line between encouragement and pushing individuals in what is a fun hobby for most. As a club we openly offer and promote the tools to encourage but leave the decision after the A Test largely to the individual discretion to pursuit. The Achievement scheme was a topic of heated debate when the club first introduced it some twenty years ago but the club seems to have struck the right balance.

[Peter Jenkins]

Another route to follow if you are having difficulty getting B instruction is to ask your Club to get help from the Area Achievement Scheme Controller. They can identify a suitable Area Chief Examiner or Area Chief Instructor to come along and coach you from time to time. You may, though, need to travel to where they fly. They will be able to demonstrate the required standard and to run the rule over you, so to speak, to identify which areas need improvement and how you can achieve that improvement. They will certainly help you to set up your aircraft trim so that you are not fighting the aeroplane. The role of the ACE and ACI is to encourage take up of both A and B certs and C certs come to that and not just to examine candidates.

At the end of the day, as has already been flagged up, there needs to be a drive from within the individual to achieve a higher standard of flying. Sometimes, with the pressure of work or family issues you just cannot devote the time to practicing for, say, the B Certificate. I know that for me, while I was working it was just too difficult to maintain the required currency so that I used to spend my time doing the same old stuff - badly - again and again! Very demoralising!

I like the use of an intermediate step between an A and a B - a useful form of encouragement.

Peter

[Willyuk]

See my comments on Peter's aerobatics thread, where I too explain my problems. I did not say on that thread but feel I should state it here, that I am lucky in that I live close enough to Peter to solicit his help in improving my flying. Without his help I would have no chance. A simple example is having someone to stand next to you and tell you that the flight path is NOT level or to suggest a click of trim might help does really really allow one to get to grips with problems and not just keep repeating the same mistakes.

[Masher]

Yes I saw your comments on the other thread and they sound familiar! I have read what I can about the theory and put plenty of effort in at the field but without expert guidance, I find it hard to pin point what is good/bad. I do get plenty of guidance from non-expert 'flyers' at the club though but somehow find this to be useless!

You are lucky to have access to Peter - could you persuade him to do a demonstration and put it on video?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Do you have Examiners at your club Masher ? if so are these not advising, helping you ?

John

[Masher]

Hi John

We do but things are a little "hazy" - I've asked a couple of questions today (a) clarification of instructors and examiners (b) can someone demo a B schedule.

This all sounds as if the club is poor - it's not, it's just that informality prevails and I am reluctant to put individuals on the spot. I know that 2 of our 'B' cert holders are not comfortable in giving instruction - I understand this as some just want to go fly. I do tap them up for help at times but blood and stone comes to mind!

It's club night tonight so I will report back with any updates I get.

Following on from Lindsay's comments, our club doesn't even require 'A' (or similar) to fly solo. So whilst in Lindsay's club people lose interest after A, at least there is some culture of encouraging improvement. In our club there is no culture of taking certificates so it has very low profile.

[Stevo]

And what if the club is not BMFA affiliated, like mine?

I got lucky, and there was one chap who I thought was a little bit grumpy at our place to be honest. Anyhow I did him a favour and was curteous and polite, only to find out he had an instructor's certificate. He then started to txt me every now and then to get me out of the workshop and down to the patch, and when I get to the field he always make a point of going and encourages me all the way. He helps trim out my aircraft accurately, talks me through my landings and how to improve almost every time. Strange how folk are!

Yep I'm in the improvers category, definitely on landings. Not even got an 'A' yet though.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Examiners are happy to help and advise, but as has been stated, they don't want to pressurise people, so you need to speak up. He's a club member and probably your buddy anyway (if you've any sense)

John

[Cuban8]

Posted by john stones 1 on 01/09/2014 13:36:30:

I take your point C8 but the rules and regs of show flying are not what a B test is about for me, its an higher standard of flying and a good standard of safety all round, you don't need to know the show rules to achieve this. To fly at shows need you to commit to learning what's expected of you though.

John

Then I think we're in agreement. A higher standard of flying somewhere between the A and B but with the oral part based pretty much on the A requirements.

[Cuban8]

B cert demo on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_fTx6YJD7s

Don't think I'd have accepted the stall turn at 3.30

Edited By Cuban8 on 02/09/2014 09:31:28

[reg shaw]

In my club, it seems the rush to get an A or B gets in the way of proper instruction. Its much better to take your time and actually enjoy getting there and learning why things should be done a certain way. Learning to fly simply but accurately is far more important than 'stunts'. There is nothing more pleasurable (well obviously there is..) than aiming to land and a point and actually doing it, or flying a model round the circuit and not being a mere spectator, that's called free flight! Its good to do something planned every flight, its adds far more to each one, whether it simply be accurate rectangular circuits(or whatever shape as long as they are deliberate!) or specific aerobatic manouvres. Cross wind operation is another thing that is good to practice, its amazing how many folks notice when you do a nice crosswind take off or landing!!

Ian.

[Masher]

Well done for finding that video C8.

The good news is, if that is an acceptable standard, then I'm closer to being ready for the 'B' than I thought! But that's a big 'if' I think but perhaps I'm over critical.

Ian, you make a good point and I'm in no hurry and just want to do things properly. I did keep telling myself during the early instruction days (in a different club) to enjoy every minute because once you've done it, you've done it!

 

Edited By Masher on 02/09/2014 10:13:11

[Bucksboy]

My Club, West London, runs sessions throughout the summer to encourage and teach people for the B certificate. Those interested turn up and the club Examiner gives demonstrations and then helps, guides the rest of us as we attempt to copy the manoeuvres. We are lucky in that we have a qualified B examiner to give this instruction, I admit.

We have a handful that are practising for their C test too. The rest of us sit back and encourage. Encouragement in our club covers a wide spectrum.

[Masher]

Sounds like a very good club you have Bucksboy!

My club is also very good in most other aspects, it's just this particular problem with achievement or lack of. I assume the difference is that in your club, you have plenty of experts to choose from who are willing to encourage/share/guide those with a desire to improve. Our expert pool is quite small.

[Peter Jenkins]

Just one point on the Video, the flight was to allow the Examiners and others present to discuss whether they would pass or fail the flight. There were some deliberate errors introduced into the flight, some obvious and some more subtle (like flying out of bounds on the landing leg) which were designed to generate discussion as to whether the flight was a pass or "I think you need a bit more practise before you go for your B".

However, watching the video shows the limitations of video as you cannot see how accurately the fig 8 cross over was nor whether the aircraft track was good enough on the 2 rolls. But, it does give some guidelines particularly in the smooth way the aircraft is rolled into and out of turns plus holding a constant height.