Castles in The Sky On BBC 2 Tonight

[J D 8]

It seems strange how people at that time who had done their best for their country at a time of great need were then pushed aside,as well as Watson Watt one can think of Hugh Dowding, Kieth Park [commander 11 group] Frank Whittle, Arthur Harris and Tommy Flowers [computers].

In place of the B of B section it may have been better [more interesting] to have covered early operational problems. Unlike later radar which sweeps around the early setup looked every where all of the time,this resulted in what became known as the battle of Barking creek when as a result of reflections in the radar some RAF aircraft were mistaken for the enemy and more scrambled and so on until there many fighters airborne on the hunt and as a result of poor communications two Hurricanes[first RAF losses] were shot down by Spitfires as they raced around looking for an enemy who was not there.

The fix was to blank out the overland view and rely on the Royal Observer Corps once the enemy had crossed the coast and the introduction of IFF identification friend or foe unit in RAF aircraft.Lessons were learned.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by kc on 05/09/2014 18:11:35:

One period error was mention of a tape recorder ( I think ) Probably wire recorders had hardly been used by then and tape recorders not invented by the 30's but only a decade or so later. ( or am I mistaken?)

I heard a reference to a 'trace' recorder - presumably the classic scrolling pen type. 

Unless my ears were editing it to suit

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 05/09/2014 19:40:06

[Prop Nut]

Magnetic tape for sound recording originated in 1930 and was commonly used by war correspondents throughout the Second World War.

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by john davies 8 on 05/09/2014 19:29:48:

It seems strange how people at that time who had done their best for their country at a time of great need were then pushed aside,as well as Watson Watt one can think of Hugh Dowding, Kieth Park [commander 11 group] Frank Whittle, Arthur Harris and Tommy Flowers [computers].

Tommy Flowers now THERE is a man who's name should be common knowledge sadly almost unknown along with many others Bill Tutte brilliant minds and almost forgotten, as a side note Roy Jenkins MP was a code breaker too

[Gavin Mack]

Very enjoyable program.
If you are interested in the technical side of ww2 then I can recommend (one of the best books I have read) 'most secret war british scientific intelligence 1939-45' by RV Jones. In 1977 the BBC produced a 7 part series based on the book fronted by William Woolard. The BBC has just this week released the series on DVD

[kc]

Prop Nut was right magnetic paper tape was used from the 1930's (it's all there on Wikipedia I should have looked first) Consumer tape recording only started in the 1940's. I think Bob was probably right too - trace recorder seem more likely.

Tommy Flowers, Bill Tutte etc are not forgotten at Bletchly Park. Well worth a visit if you are anywhere near Milton Keynes. Probably needs most of a day there to see it all including the computer museum.

Whilst we are talking about museums shouldn't there be an exhibit somwhere showing the development of RC gear?

[buster prop]

There used to be a radar museum in Norfolk, close to RAF Neatishead I wanted to visit it once but the museum was closed for some reason. If it still exists I'd be very interested. Like kc I also think the achievements of boffins don't get enough recognition. About the programme, I watched it and was disappointed, it seemed to focus a lot on arguments between Watson-Watt and Lindemann who wanted to turn the project over to Oxbridge academics rather than W-W's technicians. As usual being a BBC programme, class differences were laid on with a trowel. One thing that surprised me was a technician warming up a pie in front of a parabolic reflector, especially as centimetric radar didn't exist in 1939. Later in the war (after the magnetron was invented) microwave cooking became possible, but not with metre wave energy. The programme had its faults but it was a change from soaps, cookery, football and celebrities.

 

 

 

Edited By buster prop on 09/09/2014 20:48:29

[Simon Chaddock]

There is another facet to the development of radar and that is the resonant cavity magnetron.

Until its invention by John Randall and Harry Boot 1940 the sheer size of radar equipment virtually precluded its use in aircraft. The cavity magnetron made high power centimeter band radar possible and in a unit small enough to carried aloft.

The prototype cavity magnetron was given to the Americans in exchange for financial assistance. It was at the time about 1000 times more powerful than anything in the USA operating at that frequency.

[Cuban8]

An interesting side story is that of John 'Cat's Eye's' Cunningham who's unprecedented early success as a night fighter pilot was for propaganda purposes, (covering up the actual use of airborne interception equipment) attributed to his extraordinary natural night vision augmented by a diet rich in carrots!

[Erfolg]

I have been reading this thread with some interest. Although i must state I have not seen the programme that is referenced.

What has struck me is that some of the statements do not seem to fit with historic events. Perhaps with the aim of emphasising the achievements of those involved from a UK perspective, the achievements of scientists in other countries are overlooked.

It does seem after some reading, that some of the claims are not strictly true, such as the invention of the magnetron, although a much improved version certainly was developed in the UK.

A quick browse of this link may help in getting a more rounded impression of what happened when and where.

[Simon Chaddock]

I agree the magnetron itself was invented in the 1920s but it had little practical use.

Randall and Boot by some pure research developed the resonant cavity magnetron that was capable of handling many hundred time the power of the basic magnetron.

Without this the high frequency radar, HuffDuff anti submarine on frigates, H2S air to ground on bombers and ASV for Coastal Command, would not have been possible.

In fact it was considered so secret that the development of its use in air born radar was delayed by about 9 months in favour of the well known but much lower power klystron unit at a very critical period in the U boat war.

Following the Tizard commission presenting one of the first cavity magnetron to the US, President Roosevelt was to describe it as "the most important cargo ever brought to American shores".

After the war it was discovered that the Russians had independently developed, but not used, a resonant cavity magnetron. Furthermore the Germans had been aware of this Russian research but Hitler decreed there was no need for centimeter band radar and thus no development was under taken even after one of the first H2S equipped bombers was shot down and its radar examined.