Ebay Attilla - getting ready to fly it - advice needed

[Gary Binnie]

A long shot, I had this problem with an OS 40FS, not a peep.

The plugs are hi-amp, I had my power panel on the standard plug setting, switched it to the correct setting and it started straight away.

Check the plug is actually doing its stuff, perhaps try a brand new one (OS F).

Gary

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Most likely to be congealed fuel in the carb - I keep a bicycle pump in my flight box to clear blockages - mostly on clubmates engines coming out of storage!

I blow through the fuel inlet with the needle removed, then replace it a few threads, open the throttle fully and blow again which usually does the trick.

On a serious note - try not to ingest glow fuel in even small quantities - I would never suck fuel through by mouth. Methanol is extremely toxic and can even be absorbed through the skin so wipe off any spills immediately - unless you want to risk blindness and brain damage!

[JAMES S]

Posted by Trevor Crook on 29/12/2014 18:02:48:

James, the picture shows a 4-stroke. Has it been run recently? ....

If you get totally fed up, my Attila flies nicely on 350W of cheap electric power. I ditched glow properly - no starter, batteries or other support gear any more, so I couldn't start an engine if I was given one!

Hi Trevor,

Its not been run recently at all. I noticed when I fuel proofed it that some of the airframe fittings have gone rusty, for example the bolt used to screw into the filler fuel line had gone rusty and the aileron rods are rusty as well. I suspect it had been sitting in a shed for a year or two. I will follow up your advice on checking for a blockage tomorrow.

James

PS I have a stack of various electric power plants I could put in this and will get tempted if I don't sort it soon

[JAMES S]

Posted by Gary Binnie on 29/12/2014 18:17:28:

A long shot, I had this problem with an OS 40FS, not a peep.

The plugs are hi-amp, I had my power panel on the standard plug setting, switched it to the correct setting and it started straight away.

Check the plug is actually doing its stuff, perhaps try a brand new one (OS F).

Gary

Thanks Gary ! I don't own a power panel, just a glow starter stick and a "Just Engines" in cowl glow system which is a few years old. Any idea how I could check if either of these are high amp? Or how I could bodge a high amp system from using a remote glow lead ( salvaged from the "Just Engines" in cowl glow system ) and other batteries and stuff I may have laying around?

[JAMES S]

Posted by Martin Harris on 29/12/2014 18:51:38:

Most likely to be congealed fuel in the carb - I keep a bicycle pump in my flight box to clear blockages - mostly on clubmates engines coming out of storage!

I blow through the fuel inlet with the needle removed, then replace it a few threads, open the throttle fully and blow again which usually does the trick.

On a serious note - try not to ingest glow fuel in even small quantities - I would never suck fuel through by mouth. Methanol is extremely toxic and can even be absorbed through the skin so wipe off any spills immediately - unless you want to risk blindness and brain damage!

Hi Martin,

I won't be trying the methanol tasting again....the lingering fizzy after taste was enough of a warning to decide this stuff had a poison symbol on the bottle for a reason!

I will be using the bicycle pump tomorrow,

thanks

james

[Shaunie]

James,

Where abouts in the country are you?

I am in the South East (Kent/Sussex border) if you are anywhere near I will be glad to help.

If you are Oop North I am sure someone else will be able to help.

Otherwise I suspect sticky valves, it should start readily from a bounce, if the electric conrod bender won't make it go then there is definitely a problem.

Shaunie.

[Gary Binnie]

A normal 'glow stick' should work fine, if the plug has a very bright, almost white, glow then you are ok.

Some power panels have a selector for both types of plug, on the lower setting there will only be a dull red glow.

I see you have had the engine out, check that the three pipes to the engine are actually connected to the right connections for the tank.

Download the manual for your engine from the OS website and set the low and high mixture needles to the ballpark figures they give (someone might have played with it).

Only other tip I can think of beyond that is to put a finger over the silencer while applying the starter, pumps fuel through a cavitated line, it's the usual way I start four strokes (not in the manual!).

Beyond that someone might have played with the engine internals, check you have at least some valve clearance and if all else fails check the valve timing.

Have fun!

[JAMES S]

Posted by Shaunie on 29/12/2014 22:48:35:

James,

Where abouts in the country are you?

I am in the South East (Kent/Sussex border) if you are anywhere near I will be glad to help.

If you are Oop North I am sure someone else will be able to help.

Otherwise I suspect sticky valves, it should start readily from a bounce, if the electric conrod bender won't make it go then there is definitely a problem.

Shaunie.

Hi Shaunie,

I'm in Berks which is a bit far but thanks for the offer of help! I'm going to work through the items related to fuel blockages and hopefully that will fix things....sticky valves may require some kind of dis-assembly to solve and I hope that doesn't get to that!

James

[JAMES S]

Posted by Gary Binnie on 29/12/2014 23:48:27:

A normal 'glow stick' should work fine, if the plug has a very bright, almost white, glow then you are ok.

Some power panels have a selector for both types of plug, on the lower setting there will only be a dull red glow.

I see you have had the engine out, check that the three pipes to the engine are actually connected to the right connections for the tank.

Download the manual for your engine from the OS website and set the low and high mixture needles to the ballpark figures they give (someone might have played with it).

Only other tip I can think of beyond that is to put a finger over the silencer while applying the starter, pumps fuel through a cavitated line, it's the usual way I start four strokes (not in the manual!).

Beyond that someone might have played with the engine internals, check you have at least some valve clearance and if all else fails check the valve timing.

Have fun!

Gary - you could be on to something....my plug glows red not white in my glow starter.......now I must try and see if this my issue as that would be a very quick fix..... I'll try fitting my Just Engine on-board glow and see what happens. Not tonight though, below freezing in the garden and I'm not allowed to play for 4 strokes in the house

James

[Gary Binnie]

You're quids in if it does fix it!

I remember the farce with my OS 40FS, it was my first four-stroke, bought new around 1995.

A non-aeromodelling friend was watching and said 'have you tried the other setting on the glow panel?'

Aha!!

Sadly killed that engine last year, might be repairable with some new castings.

[JAMES S]

I had a good hour or so messing around again this afternoon and still no joy!

I tried using my Just Engines on board glow as an alternate to the glow stick but unfortunately my throttle servo channel is reversed and the on-board glow could not cope with this and was giving full glow on when the throttle was fully open and full off when the throttle was at idle.

However I used the glow lead and earth lead to bodge a glow and simply connected and disconnected the battery when I wanted to try and start the aircraft.

I used a bicycle pump to blow out the carb and unscrewed the needle value fully to blow through this area as well. I tested all the fuel lines for blockages and double checked the tank was the right way up.

I got a new glow battery from maplin ( 1850 mah NI-CD ) which was getting pretty warm during the process of trying to start the aircraft and I noticed the glow plug was glowing red when I tested it outside the engine. I'm still not getting a white glow though.

Back on the bench after another frustrating 20 minutes of no starting I unscrewed the valve cover and could see everything looks squeaky clean.

My next step I think is to buy a new 4 stroke glow plug.

Any other suggestions?

[Dave Hopkin]

If I were you I would but TWO 4 stroke glow plugs (always a good idea to have a spare in your field kit), seems to me by not using the correct plugs you are just making life harder for yourself

[G-YRUS]

I am looking at your photos assuming they are as you have tried to start the engine. I don't want to encourage a discussion as there are always differing views but inverted four strokes can be tricky although I have used inverted four stroke OS engines with no issues, however I would give it a go right side up as it all looks clean and little used to me. Also ditch the glow stick for a glow clip from a battery they are much more reliable

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Personally, I'd be aiming for a bright orange glow at most - a white element is likely to lead a short life...

Just to be controversial - I prefer glow sticks as they won't over-drive a glowplug but are unaffected by load on a power panel from the starter...although there's nothing wrong with a lead on a separate battery if the wire doesn't get caught in the prop...

Glow engines are simple things - as long as fuel/air mixture is getting to the cylinder; there's compression and there's a glow they should fire.

After trying to start it without success, immediately remove the glow plug - it should be damp but not soaking wet. If it's bone dry, you have a fuel problem - too wet and the engine is flooding.

If it was dry, turn the engine "right way up", drop a small amount of fuel into the cylinder, replace the plug and try to start it after turning the engine over by hand a couple of times. Apply the glow and try to start the engine - firing briefly will confirm a fuel flow or carburation problem.

If it's soaking, blow away any excess and apply a voltage to the plug to boil off any excess fuel. Try starting the engine upright after spinning the engine with the throttle wide open to expel excess fuel before applying the glow. Don't forget to close the throttle first!

If it is flooding, you may need to lower the tank in the model.

Edited By Martin Harris on 01/01/2015 19:14:02

[Jon H]

It sounds like fuel starvation, I am also suspecting you are trying to start it with the electric starter? just spinning it forever more with no luck? If so, ditch the electric starter and try it by hand.

To do this, open to full power with glow off. Place a pinkie over the carb intake and turn the engine over a few times until there is noticeable fuel in the engine or it hydraulic locks. Once this happens, throttle back and flip the engine over a load of times to clear most of the fuel out and prevent any issues with flooding. Then, glow on (you should hear the plug sizzle) and tap the engine BACKWARDS against compression with a wooden stick. It should them fire and run in the correct direction. This is how I start all of my 4 stroke engines from saito 45 to Laser 360v and it works every time. When you get more used to the engine you will not need to flood it, you will be able to just judge the prime and it might even go without a prime using the starter once its got some running on it.

WHATEVER YOU DO MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT CRANK IT WITH THE STARTER WHEN HEAVILY PRIMED!

If you have no joy, I am much closer than the other guys as I am in bucks so can give you hand if you like

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

One other thought - are you using a remote glow connection as suggested by the photos or applying the glow stick direct to the plug? If there's a short circuit in the remote wiring it would explain your glowstick getting hot!

[JAMES S]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 01/01/2015 16:50:14:

If I were you I would but TWO 4 stroke glow plugs (always a good idea to have a spare in your field kit), seems to me by not using the correct plugs you are just making life harder for yourself

Hi Dave,

the plug has an "F" on it which means it is a four stroke one.

cheers

James

[JAMES S]

Posted by G-YRUS on 01/01/2015 17:07:13:

I am looking at your photos assuming they are as you have tried to start the engine. I don't want to encourage a discussion as there are always differing views but inverted four strokes can be tricky although I have used inverted four stroke OS engines with no issues, however I would give it a go right side up as it all looks clean and little used to me. Also ditch the glow stick for a glow clip from a battery they are much more reliable

Hi G-YRUS,

Tomorrow I'll have another go at starting it and may try putting the whole aircraft up side down ( although of course I'll take out the fuel tank first to ensure it keeps the right side up ).

Also, I've bought a flight panel with a glow connection and ability to change the current going to the glow so will try that as well

thanks

James

[bert baker]

Posted by Jon Harper on 02/01/2015 10:12:32

WHATEVER YOU DO MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT CRANK IT WITH THE STARTER WHEN HEAVILY PRIMED!

If you have no joy, I am much closer than the other guys as I am in bucks so can give you hand if you like

Some good advice, Take up Jon's offer to help, it would be a shame to damage the engine or the plane.

[JAMES S]

Posted by Martin Harris on 02/01/2015 13:39:44:

One other thought - are you using a remote glow connection as suggested by the photos or applying the glow stick direct to the plug? If there's a short circuit in the remote wiring it would explain your glowstick getting hot!

Hi Martin,

for ignition I've tried

glowstick

remote glow controlled by Just Engines controller manged by the throttle channel

remote glow controlled by connecting battery directly to it

The battery for the glow got most hot when I was trying to use the Just Engines remote glow connector but I never attempted to start the aircraft using this method as it was having trouble correctly interpreting my throttle postion and turning the glow off when the throttle was idle.

Like the idea about the short circuit though I'll consider this tomorrow.

James

[JAMES S]

Posted by Martin Harris on 01/01/2015 19:04:39:

Personally, I'd be aiming for a bright orange glow at most - a white element is likely to lead a short life...

Just to be controversial - I prefer glow sticks as they won't over-drive a glowplug but are unaffected by load on a power panel from the starter...although there's nothing wrong with a lead on a separate battery if the wire doesn't get caught in the prop...

Glow engines are simple things - as long as fuel/air mixture is getting to the cylinder; there's compression and there's a glow they should fire.

After trying to start it without success, immediately remove the glow plug - it should be damp but not soaking wet. If it's bone dry, you have a fuel problem - too wet and the engine is flooding.

If it was dry, turn the engine "right way up", drop a small amount of fuel into the cylinder, replace the plug and try to start it after turning the engine over by hand a couple of times. Apply the glow and try to start the engine - firing briefly will confirm a fuel flow or carburation problem.

If it's soaking, blow away any excess and apply a voltage to the plug to boil off any excess fuel. Try starting the engine upright after spinning the engine with the throttle wide open to expel excess fuel before applying the glow. Don't forget to close the throttle first!

If it is flooding, you may need to lower the tank in the model.

Edited By Martin Harris on 01/01/2015 19:14:02

Martin - I did try dropping some fuel in to the cyclinder last time I tried - but could not get ignition. However I didn't properly check if the cylinder was wet or dry before doing that so I will pay close attention to that tomorrow.

thanks for all the tips

James

[JAMES S]

Posted by Jon Harper on 02/01/2015 10:12:32:

It sounds like fuel starvation, I am also suspecting you are trying to start it with the electric starter? just spinning it forever more with no luck? If so, ditch the electric starter and try it by hand.

To do this, open to full power with glow off. Place a pinkie over the carb intake and turn the engine over a few times until there is noticeable fuel in the engine or it hydraulic locks. Once this happens, throttle back and flip the engine over a load of times to clear most of the fuel out and prevent any issues with flooding. Then, glow on (you should hear the plug sizzle) and tap the engine BACKWARDS against compression with a wooden stick. It should them fire and run in the correct direction. This is how I start all of my 4 stroke engines from saito 45 to Laser 360v and it works every time. When you get more used to the engine you will not need to flood it, you will be able to just judge the prime and it might even go without a prime using the starter once its got some running on it.

WHATEVER YOU DO MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT CRANK IT WITH THE STARTER WHEN HEAVILY PRIMED!

If you have no joy, I am much closer than the other guys as I am in bucks so can give you hand if you like

Jon,

I've seen old hands with I/C motors doing what you've described but never understood exactly why they did this. I like what you're suggesting and will definatly give it a go tomorrow.

Thanks for the warning about cranking when heavily primed - not being used to these I/C things I'd assume no harm could be done by the electric starter whirring away trying to start the engine

thanks!

James

[JAMES S]

Posted by JAMES S on 02/01/2015 18:07:23:

Posted by Jon Harper on 02/01/2015 10:12:32:

It sounds like fuel starvation, I am also suspecting you are trying to start it with the electric starter? just spinning it forever more with no luck? If so, ditch the electric starter and try it by hand.

To do this, open to full power with glow off. Place a pinkie over the carb intake and turn the engine over a few times until there is noticeable fuel in the engine or it hydraulic locks. Once this happens, throttle back and flip the engine over a load of times to clear most of the fuel out and prevent any issues with flooding. Then, glow on (you should hear the plug sizzle) and tap the engine BACKWARDS against compression with a wooden stick. It should them fire and run in the correct direction. This is how I start all of my 4 stroke engines from saito 45 to Laser 360v and it works every time. When you get more used to the engine you will not need to flood it, you will be able to just judge the prime and it might even go without a prime using the starter once its got some running on it.

WHATEVER YOU DO MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT CRANK IT WITH THE STARTER WHEN HEAVILY PRIMED!

If you have no joy, I am much closer than the other guys as I am in bucks so can give you hand if you like

Jon,

I've seen old hands with I/C motors doing what you've described but never understood exactly why they did this. I like what you're suggesting and will definatly give it a go tomorrow.

Thanks for the warning about cranking when heavily primed - not being used to these I/C things I'd assume no harm could be done by the electric starter whirring away trying to start the engine

thanks!

James

Jon,

Finally IGNITION! I managed to start it about 4 times this morning, the longest run about 5 seconds before it died.

Since it starts and runs for 5 seconds can I assume the engine is fundamentally sound?

Using more or less your method I noticed when I had the throttle wide open, then covered the carb with a pinke, then turned the propeller by hand that gradually the prop became harder to turn ( although it never locked ). I then noticed if I removed my pinkie and left the throttle wide open and spun the prop by hand I could see vapourised fuel 'puffing' up out of the carb.

Another observation is that the engine sometimes wanted to kick back when I was starting it by hand ( using a chicken stick ) . Usually just after it tried to kick back it would then start.

I could also here the engine sizzle as you described when attaching the glow plug.

I never managed to start it by flicking the prop the wrong way - can you confirm that you manually wind the prop back to where you feel the compression then flick it with a stick? All my starts were going the normal way.

cheers

James

I

[cymaz]

The kick back is a good sign, you have glow and fuel in the cylinder so it wants to go.

There is nothing wrong in starting the engine against compression - I start all my two strokes against compression.

If it running for only a short time try opening up the Low Speed Needle another 1/4 tun. Try again. Make a note of how many times and by how much each needle is adjusted. It makes it easier to go back to a certain point should you need to.

[JAMES S]

Posted by cymaz on 04/01/2015 09:53:35:

The kick back is a good sign, you have glow and fuel in the cylinder so it wants to go.

There is nothing wrong in starting the engine against compression - I start all my two strokes against compression.

If it running for only a short time try opening up the Low Speed Needle another 1/4 tun. Try again. Make a note of how many times and by how much each needle is adjusted. It makes it easier to go back to a certain point should you need to.

Thanks Cymaz - I had to fiddle with the needle until I got it running smoothly at low throttle.

Oddly - in my eyes - every time I started the engine flicking it forwards the bloom'in thing ran backwards so it was trying to back the Attilla up in the garden. To get the engine to run normally I had to flick the propeller backwards.

So....lots of progress today....

the engine must be sound as it runs

I can start it regularly using Jon's method

it will run for up to 2 or 3 minutes without stopping

some more 'fettling' probably required on the engine department before committing aviation

However tonight I've seen another problem. I've been putting my pinkie over the carb to 'prim' the engine ready for starting, in normal ready for flight mode the attilla carb will be completely obscured by the metal engine cover and I won't get access to it.

What to do about this?