BMFA Country Members

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Don't want to intrude and i reckon neither of you's doing anything wrong, p.m might be best way to ask question though ?

John

[Peter Jenkins]

Posted by MattyB on 19/01/2017 10:08:40:

Lots of country members are not members of a club! As to those affiliated club members who choose to renew their BMFA membership as country members, I suspect perceived convenience is the main one; they can renew online in seconds or (if they prefer) over the phone with the BMFA direct and the card will arrive in a few days. Also the vast majority of members do not realise that by joining as a country members they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of voting; only a fraction of members will have read the Articles of Association, so their implicit assumption will be that the organisation will be democratic and that they will receive a vote in crucial matters.

Matty, every BMFA member gets a Handbook when they join - the current one is the 2010 Edition. Pages 5-10 cover the SMAE/BMFA and page 9 contains a section on Types of Membership, BMFA Affiliated Clubs and Voting in which the issue of who can vote at General Meetings is described concisely - by that I mean it's a precis of the Articles of Association. If people choose not to read the Handbook what other mechanism would you suggest to bring this information to their attention?

[Gary Manuel]

Peter.

I don't think people "choose not to read" the preface to the Handbook. They just skip to the bits that give advice on learning to fly - then never look at it again.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Everyone knows that answer, it's repeated often enough, not many replies to "explain how it's right 1/3 had no say".

John

[LMA Dave]

Posted by MattyB on 20/01/2017 00:01:12:

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 19:57:19:

Hi Matty, No offence but the views I have expressed here were my own opinion as a member of this forum, they are not the views of the LMA. I am not getting drawn into politics between the two associations. As I have said I am not a BMFA member nor do I want to be at this moment in time.

Apologies, but I think you have misunderstood. The questions I asked above are genuine, and I am not asking for "the views of the LMA". I am not being combative - I would just like to understand how the LMA constitution/Articles of Association are put together. I looked on the LMA website, but could not find this information. Is it published online somewhere?

Edited By MattyB on 20/01/2017 00:03:23

Hi MattyB PM sent.

[MattyB]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 20/01/2017 00:42:53:

Posted by MattyB on 19/01/2017 10:08:40:

Lots of country members are not members of a club! As to those affiliated club members who choose to renew their BMFA membership as country members, I suspect perceived convenience is the main one; they can renew online in seconds or (if they prefer) over the phone with the BMFA direct and the card will arrive in a few days. Also the vast majority of members do not realise that by joining as a country members they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of voting; only a fraction of members will have read the Articles of Association, so their implicit assumption will be that the organisation will be democratic and that they will receive a vote in crucial matters.

Matty, every BMFA member gets a Handbook when they join - the current one is the 2010 Edition. Pages 5-10 cover the SMAE/BMFA and page 9 contains a section on Types of Membership, BMFA Affiliated Clubs and Voting in which the issue of who can vote at General Meetings is described concisely - by that I mean it's a precis of the Articles of Association. If people choose not to read the Handbook what other mechanism would you suggest to bring this information to their attention?

Yawn, same old same old. We have done this all before Peter. Please try reading my post again; I simply stated that most members have not read the AOA cover to cover, nothing more, nothing less. Do you contest that?

People don't read them for a few reasons. 1) Like the Apple T&Cs when you update IOS, they are long and wordy - if I read the small print of every org I was involved in I would never get to work; 2) for most members this is supposed to be a relaxing and fun pastime; they just want to be insured to fly with the minimum of fuss, and 3) because most people's implicit expectation in a western society is that 100% of volunteer run clubs and societies will have a governance model based on equal rights for all members. In the vast majority of organisations that is true, but unfortunately in the case of the BMFA it is not, nor does it look likely to be anytime soon.

Relax; the status quo has been defended, the matter has been settled and us dissenting rabble (including those pesky country members) are now well aware of their place in the hierarchy. Victory!

Edited By MattyB on 20/01/2017 01:52:14

[John F]

Posted by MattyB on 20/01/2017 01:49:32:

3) because most people's implicit expectation in a western society is that 100% of volunteer run clubs and societies will have a governance model based on equal rights for all members. In the vast majority of organisations that is true, but unfortunately in the case of the BMFA it is not, nor does it look likely to be anytime soon.

 

With running the risk of making this an ever revolving cirlce of "yes they do" / "No they don't" you claim that most clubs allow equal rights for members.

Can you actually, really, honestly prove that? Of course you can't.

My archery and motorcycle clubs do not give equal rights, as the committees tell us what we are planning and doing, nor does any of the SNCO military messes I have been member of. EGM and AGM's sometimes allow votes for some issues but, in general, your quoted utopia "a western society is that 100% of volunteer run clubs . . . . . model based on equal rights for all members" simply does not exist.

Stating that something is a fact does not mean that it is a fact.

Country Members do not get a vote because, as per the articles of the BMFA, the membership is made up from affiliated clubs. If you do not wish to be a member of an affiliated club then you can still benefit from the insurance by being a Country Member but you don't get to vote as only clubs vote.

This is like moaning that you get cold riding a bike yet is it unfair that car drivers are nice and warm. You know what you're getting before you get on the bike.

If you want a vote then join a club.

Edited By John F on 20/01/2017 08:41:56

[MattyB]

I and others have never said every decision has to be voted on by members - clearly that is untenable. What I am saying is that in 100% of the clubs and associations of which I am a member, when it comes to a matter that is big enough to require a vote (as documented in the constitution/other governance docs) every member has an equal say in the outcome. i.e. OMOV. This is true of all three model clubs of which I am currently a member, the professional organisations of which I am a member, and all the clubs and societies I was in at University. As a result I (and I suspect almost no-one else who joins the BMFA) bothered to check the AoA to verify this was true.

Should I? Clearly the answer to that in hindsight is yes. Would it have made a difference to my decision to join? Not in a practical sense - two fly at two of my three most regular flying locations I am required to be a member because they are BMFA affiliated clubs (I am actually an affiliated member myself, so my vote did count at the EGM), so I have no real choice.

TBH it is not even the fact that this is the current state that now really grates; as you state that has always been written down, and members (including me) should have read it. What really grates is the way that the Exec stated at the EGM that they have heard the dissent on this matter  and would look at it, but have made no effort to consult with members via the BMFA News or an online survey to understand what the wider view on governance change is - instead they just dismissed it. This is the reason no-one (me included) is prepared to step forward to champion change from within the system; as per my previous post those at the top clearly like the system, and know the wider membership are pretty much powerless to change it, so it will say.

Edited By MattyB on 20/01/2017 09:55:50

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

There's a massive flaw in the representation system anyway which doesn't seem to have been mentioned much, if at all. While it is true that the ordinary club member carries a vote, these are block votes cast by a representative of the club in proportion to the number of affiliated members.

As an example, my only direct contact with the system was at the recent EGM. I felt interested enough to volunteer to attend the meeting on behalf of my club as I had serious misgivings about the planned enterprise. At least 90% of the members who expressed an opinion or replied to my general email agreed with my viewpoint but even so, I made it clear that I would be listening to the arguments and reserved the right to vote the other way should I have felt it correct. Therefore, in effect, the club vote was actually one person's opinion and that might well have differed if our usual representative had attended (one of the two members who supported the motion).

Is there any way to check how my club's vote was cast? I haven't seen a breakdown of the voting published anywhere - were the individual votes recorded in any official document (Keith, Andy, Peter - can you answer this?) so the membership of my club could be in blissful ignorance that they might have been misrepresented had I gone the other way.

In the case of a close divide of opinion within a 100 member club - say 51/49 in favour of a viewpoint, 100 votes would be cast for (in theory) for the motion (although as per above those 100 votes could go the other way) - is this in any way truly and reliably representative of the views of the membership?

[Keith Lomax]

Posted by Martin Harris on 20/01/2017 11:07:24:

Is there any way to check how my club's vote was cast? I haven't seen a breakdown of the voting published anywhere - were the individual votes recorded in any official document (Keith, Andy, Peter - can you answer this?) so the membership of my club could be in blissful ignorance that they might have been misrepresented had I gone the other way.

No, the votes are only tallied for the number of votes carried, we do not record the individual votes cast.

In my case, as well as my own, I was also carrying five proxies. Three of them voted one way and two the other. I did queue up on both sides and cast the votes as I had been asked to do, but there would have been no way for those clubs to know if I had done so. It was down to my integrity and conscience.

In relation to your 51/49 divide of opinion, have you considered the third option - "don't know or care". I suspect that in most clubs this will be the majority in a split along the lines of 11/10/79 (or even 1-0-99?) for most subjects.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yep Apathy won by a wide margin, great advert for us

[Mike T]

Posted by Martin Harris on 20/01/2017 11:07:24:

There's a massive flaw in the representation system anyway which doesn't seem to have been mentioned much, if at all. While it is true that the ordinary club member carries a vote, these are block votes cast by a representative of the club in proportion to the number of affiliated members.

....

In the case of a close divide of opinion within a 100 member club - say 51/49 in favour of a viewpoint, 100 votes would be cast for (in theory) for the motion (although as per above those 100 votes could go the other way) - is this in any way truly and reliably representative of the views of the membership?

This is pretty much the way the Electoral College system works when the US selects it's President. You can witness the outcome of that on most major media outlets at 5pm GMT today...

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

That's quite true Keith, and I think John has summed it up rather well!

I have to say that the drawback of the proxy vote system in the context of a meeting where issues are debated is perfectly illustrated by your experience. While I applaud your integrity, how can a club mandate you to vote without listening to any new facts or arguments presented at the meeting - why have a meeting if this isn't the reason? I have certainly opposed the idea of proxy voting at our club AGMs for this very reason.

[Peter Christy]

I spent some time as an Area rep on the Area Council. Our area always held a meeting before any council meeting, where we would go through the agenda, and I would be instructed how to vote on each topic. It was always understood that should new facts come to light at the Council meeting that shed new light on the matter, I was at liberty to vary my vote, but that I would then have to justify that change at the next meeting.

I think I only had to change my vote once (maybe twice - its a while ago now!), and each time my actions were approved by the area retrospectively. But it was a matter of trust. They trusted me to vote on their behalf, and I had to respect that trust.

Any rep who loses the trust of his constituency won't last very long!

--

Pete

[Keith Lomax]

Posted by Martin Harris on 20/01/2017 14:18:20:

That's quite true Keith, and I think John has summed it up rather well!

I have to say that the drawback of the proxy vote system in the context of a meeting where issues are debated is perfectly illustrated by your experience. While I applaud your integrity, how can a club mandate you to vote without listening to any new facts or arguments presented at the meeting - why have a meeting if this isn't the reason? I have certainly opposed the idea of proxy voting at our club AGMs for this very reason.

I agree, and that was one of the compelling arguments against changing the voting to individual members - if AGM and EGM votes were on this basis then we would need to hire an arena to accommodate the potential attendees, or most would be voting by proxy, neither situation is any better than the current position.

[Keith Lomax]

Posted by Peter Christy on 20/01/2017 14:47:37:

I spent some time as an Area rep on the Area Council. Our area always held a meeting before any council meeting, where we would go through the agenda, and I would be instructed how to vote on each topic. It was always understood that should new facts come to light at the Council meeting that shed new light on the matter, I was at liberty to vary my vote, but that I would then have to justify that change at the next meeting.

I think I only had to change my vote once (maybe twice - its a while ago now!), and each time my actions were approved by the area retrospectively. But it was a matter of trust. They trusted me to vote on their behalf, and I had to respect that trust.

Any rep who loses the trust of his constituency won't last very long!

--

Pete

.. and unless the vote at Council was unanimous, it was only your honesty that informed your area that you had voted otherwise than as instructed because the minutes only record the numbers.