Learning to fly alone

[Ernie]

Hi Eric, I wonder,

If a novice BUILDS a model, with a very simple (2 channel) radio system, ie rudder for direction, and elevator for up and down, then he understands a bit more, and it's not rocket science what does what. Also, balancing etc is not really so difficult, and making the effort to understand all this makes it all so much more rewarding.. Maybe what I'm on about is that all this fast gratification doesn't give the same in depth satisfaction

Off course it's fraught, it's always fraught, well for me at least, but, is that not an important bit of the whole thing? To me that heart stopping first flight is still one off the best bits. Well nearly always

ernie

[Lee Burke]

I am right at the hot edge of learning to fly and am in the company of two other chaps of about my own venerable age who are also learning.   One chap has his own IC trainer and has been plugging away for several months and just can't get the hang of it.  The other guy has had a half dozen lessons but is still a good way from being in control.  Neither of these chaps has practised on a sim.  On the other hand I spent a good time on a sim (Realfight) and continue to do so.  I can only imagine it is the use of the sim that has enabled me to progress much quicker than the other two guys - in fact I found the real flying a bit easier than the sim because of the lack of depth perception in the sim (all sims).  

Before I joined the club I  bought an Easy Star to learn to fly on as that is what the Net seemed to say.  But I found it can't handle much  wind and that at the club we learn on the club trainer which with its 140 cm span and three axis can handle a good bit of wind and teaches full control.  It's very mountainous where I live and often turbulent yet the trainer we use responds swiftly enough to handle this turbulence yet has a nice slow landing speed.   Anything faster and more nervous would be a nightmare for newbies like me in blustery conditions.

What has all this got to do with learning on your own?  Well,  if you do go that way I think the simulator will surely make things easier and cheaper - less crashes.  And if you don't the sim will still save you time.  But it has to be used seriously.  No good just tearing around and looping rolling and wiping out plane after plane.  You have to buckle down to monotonous circuits and bumps till you can do them in a fair croswind each time without bending anything.  Like most things, its mainly practice. 

 Just my two cents.

[Dave B]

Hello all!

Just found this thread and interested because thinking of trying self teaching. My background is 70/80's free flight and c/l with tiny bit of radio at times, but i cannot sensibly call myself a radio control flyer. Read plenty of the mags, and reckon i stand a chance with a simulator and something like an easy star.

I am not keen to approach a club to be treated  disdainfully, and sorry to say i have been on the field at  two localish clubs where i have kept myself to myself as regards what i knew about aeromodelling, (not a lot but i know a tigre and a tiger are different!) and the treatment of beginners can vary hugely.

Add to which I played golf, to a decent standard, and club culture can drive you mad at times!

Dangerous i know to generalise about people or clubs, but  for some people it might be the way to go. After all it is a hobby. 

I appreciate the need for insurance and safey.

regards

david 

[Dave B]

Hello Lee,

Take the point about wind and Easy star, I reckoned on v early morning, late evening, and moving on fairly quickly to another model.

Sim comments true as well. Somehow sims dont matter if you know what i mean.  

[Kevin Wilson]

Hi guys,

 Background; I built two gliders when I was 10 then nothing till at 16 I bought an Acoms 2ch. Dad built a Hi wing trainer and we flew together for a few years until I found girls!

Fast forward 28 years and I have bought an EasyStar. So after 28 years I consider myself an informed novice. I built the Kit Easy* and have found it most unsatisfying to fly. Underpowered, twitchy and the dihedral doesn't work .

Fitted LiPo & brushless, so now it is overpowered twitchy & unsatisfying. My brother who continued flying in the intervening 28 years declared "if you can fly that, you can fly anything". Must be just mine, with all the bouquets the EasyStar gets thrown at it. CG is ok surfaces straight and level, so who knows. I am going to get a more pointy foamy with ailerons, something which will handle the wind better and not need a mile long strip to get down in. Yes it's very 'floaty'.

As far as Sims go; I have tried Reflex but find it easier to fly the real thing.

Conclusion; with a bit of knowledge (reading) or a rtf Easystar you can teach yourself to fly. Sims help if you can get on with them, but you cannot beat stick time.

btw. I have had no (damage) crashes just hard landings; but I have had to get the ladders & rope out a few times getting the Bl##dy thing out of trees

Kevin

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Lunch-time flyer]

Hi all, I am self taught - albeit from 30 years ago with slope gliders, but 5 years ago got back into RC with a new job in the country - my experience was lunch time flying - my choice was to buy an indestructable plane! I started with a zaggi electric - no difficult engine starts, to balsa to break, and even though it was heavy and slow in comparison to the same plane today (with brushless / lipo setup) I still had hours of fun learning to keep it in the air and out of the trees!

Similar story to Kevin Wilson I think! 

Moved onto planes with their added complexity, still electric (never consider anything else), just flew them untill they were unreparable and bought a new one! Avaraged two a year... but some were just for a change... honest...

The main reason for going to a club would be "to find out the stuff you didn't even know was stuff" - it's very anoying to crash when you don't think it's your fault!

 That being said I still haven't joined a club.... might try a good sim soon, but which one... (another thread maybe)

I think it all depends on where you are / when you can fly, if there was a club around the corner at lunch times I would have gone there without a doubt.

[Mr J Atkinson]

Hi.

I think it is a great idea but do not forget the insurance. You can get bitten in a big way without it.

Fantastic pastime.

J.A.

[Malcolm Fisher]

I started way back in the fifties with rubber powered KK kits and went on to C/L when I obtained a Frog 150, a KK "Champ"  and a Skystreak 26. The Champ survived long enough for me to be able to fly the tank dry without getting so dizzy that I fell down then I went on to the Skystreak.

Years later I was given a MacGregor single channel R/C set as a Christmas present and taught myself to be able to control a glider  as a slope soarer - modified KK Chief with that before graduating to two channel with a second hand Flight Link "Duettte" - also using a modified Chief.

 Later still, (mid 1980s) after joining a club which originally was mostly C/L, I bought a powered trainer to teach myself to fly power as other club members, knowing I flew R/C gliders, asked me to test fly their latest R/C power models. Up to that time, the only R/C power experience i had was with a powered glider - short engine run to gain height and then try to find thermals. Until I had mastered my own - at that time a Junior Telemaster with a PAW 2.49 for power, I wouldn't try with anyone else's model.

 The club is no longer in existence and I am now back as a "lone flyer" still flying both power and slope soarers.

 Initially "power on" landings were more difficult and "dead stick" held no fears as with gliders EVERY landing is "dead stick".

I feel that more people should start with gliders, things usually happen more slowly than with power, there are no fuel costs, mess or noise, and with slope soaring you can get in plenty of stick time and also plenty of landing practice if you are really determined. "Overshoots" are also possible with slope soarers and even "touch and goes" as well as most of the straightforward aerobatics - provided one is prepared to put in the time and effort.

[Lunch-time flyer]

I agree with Malcolm, if you've got the chance a glider is a good was to learn.

[ERIC CLAPHAM]

Hi again,  Malcoms mention of the KK Chief brought back memories. That was actually my very first RC fly powered by a Cox 049 on a pylon with rudder and elevator. Did not last all that long but got me past the dreaded orientation hurdle. So, yes powered glider works for the tyro. I think that the most amount of hours I ever put on an airframe was with a Joe Bridie -Slope Birdy I think- 1mtre span 2 channels very simple but max.fun. That was all cliff soaring. Rgds.,EC

[Rick Tee]

My two pence worth, I agree with all who have said join a club and/or find a tutor, if one club seems unfriendly try another, I visited five clubs in this area before choosing. For those who choose to ignore this sound advice and go it alone be aware flying on publicly accessible land is often forbidden and may invalidate your BMFA insurance. Check with your local council, ours forbids the flying of model aircraft anywhere in and around the city limits including parks, playing fields and sports grounds (all publicly accessible land). The next most obvious place to fly around here would be Dartmoor but its part of the National Parks who also forbid the flying of ANY powered model aircraft. Again your BMFA insurance maybe invalid if you fly there.

I have flown RC models for nearly 35 years in that time I have seen a great many restrictions placed on where and when they can be flown. To keep the sport going and not fall fowl of yet more legislation I will report ppl flying against local or national regulations and treat them with the contempt they deserve (having checked they are aware of the restrictions). If you are flying on publicly accessible council property your are probably flying illegally, maybe subject to a fine if caught and are probably UNINSURED. Anyone who actively encourages ppl to teach themselves is irresponsible and should be banned from this or any RC model aircraft forum. Exceptions would be if you live in a remote area, no local club or tutor is available, you have permission to fly on your chosen site, no other restrictions apply and you are insured against 3rd party damage. Remember model aircraft can and do kill, fly responsibly and don't bring the sport into disrepute.

I am willing to teach/help any new club members or visitors to build, set-up and fly model aircraft. I will even give flight experience on one of my own models (one I have specifically built for this purpose) if your not sure its something you want to spend money on. If you are really stuck with no local club, grab your model and take a holiday in the west country and I or another of our club members will be happy to teach you to fly. We're a friendly bunch so not only will you learn to fly but you'll have a lot of fun too (BBQ most weekends.)

Almost all the ppl i have met who successfully taught themselves came to RC from a background of free flight, rubber powered and/or C/L. Building from sticks and plans, ARFT's eliminates the need to learn or already know about flight (i was taught the theory of flight and aerodynamics in the RAF.) Without an understanding of at least some of this information your first flight alone is VERY likely to be a disaster that occures so quickly you learn nothing. NOTE: most ARTF's/RTF's DO NOT come with the C of G in the correct place out of the box, even the same model can be quite different, i've had 2 Seagull Pilatus PC9's one needed 2oz of lead in the nose and the other 4ozs to obtain the correct balance.

Sorry if this seems a bit strong but i would not like to see more restrictions on our sport than we already have or a ban, which could happen the first time someone injures or kills a child in their local park.

[Lunch-time flyer]

That's all fair enough, and sound advice, I didn't mention it but I fly on private land with the concent of the owner... must admit lots of farmers didn't want me to fly on their land, but it was only an afternoons walk to find one near my place of work to find one that did. I always assumed my insurance would hold up under such conditions...

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Rick Tee]

Thanx Eric, i am aware ppl have been killed and seriously injured at designated flying sites, my comment was aimed at those who do, or may be tempted to, fly at their local park or other non designated flying site.

[Andy Harris]

Dear [Group]

 I *was* going to go quiet on this thread because I think I caused too much rumpus in the first place, but I got a pleasant PM from Timbo...

I've chatted to people who have been doing this a *long* time, and it seems even a few years ago you could be spending tens of hours before flying. (These types are rumoured to be able to take a prang home in a supermarket bag and fly it the next day!)

I found that an ARTF takes about 2-3 easy going evenings to build on the kitchen table, the PA Electric Shock took about 3 hours (180 mins) .  As my first plane I got 21 flights before having a prang thats (21*7)  147 mins, after repair its had 60 more flights (60*6) 360 mins.  Thats a ratio of 2.8:1 flying versus building. (As I type its still there, ready to run so the ratio will get better, although I throw it around a lot more now hence the shorter flight times).

I don't understand how this 'simple' 2-3ch business is easy.  I tried flying a 'Firebird XL', it seemed hard to keep it in the same field and 'flopped' on turns and too a long time to start the turn, then I couldn't predict how much turn would happen. 

Simulators teach your thumbs and 'away' and 'towards' orientation to be automatic, one doesn't have to do this learning in the real world.

My gut 'near' novice feel is that the beginner needs 4 channels of crisp response coupled with an airframe that tracks true and can take the G forces of the regular over corrections.

Regards

Andy

PS, I found out that my club has 55 members, in 6 weeks I've never seen any more than 10 with about 6 that I see on the patch on a regular basis, I once saw a chap bring up a beautiful scale plane, but he didn't fly it, I'm assuming that all the other members are building all the time -- is this a trend?

PPS - The Shock got pranged by flying in rain at twilight, too keen to fly and too much work getting the way. 

[Rick Tee]

I'd agree with the 3 ch thing Andy, started with a Kamco Kadet 3 channel model, didn't feel like i was in control with the delay between control input and aircraft response. Then i built a Spirit from an RCM&E plan full house, i was very nervous at the first take off, all the talk of ailerons being harder to fly with and it being a low wing model. Once off the ground it was great, positive, responsive, for the first time i felt i was flying the model. Most modern trainers are now full house and only a few ppl would recomend starting with rudder elevator. (The advantage of the rudder elevator trainer models is there ability to fly straight and level (once trimed) from any orientation, simply leave the controls alone for a few secs and they will sort themselves out, more a radio interupted flight then radio controled. )

[Robin Coombs]

I taught myself to fly BUT that was a long time ago in a very different world. I started with Keil Kraft rubber power then control line. My firt RC was a 2 channel glider & then went straight into scale. Lots of prangs till I learnt the "tricks". Having flown full size also helped.

I think that in todays world you really need to be responsible & join a club & get proper instruction. Here, in South Africa, we are running out of open space so can no longer just fly from any field. There are squatter camps everywhere and if you should prang into one of those the best outcome would be to loose the wreckage & the worst would be to get beaten up or even killed. Sad that we have come to this situation but thats the reality.

Clubs offer security & good help. Most of the clubs here are very friendly & offer avdice freely. There is now a program under way to teach school kids to build & fly. They are given simple gliders to build then get some stick time on simulators or even buddy boxes. The government sponsor this initiative.

Robin

[Andy Harris]

Dear [Thread]

I've been thinking about perspective, Rick Tee's post about safety is rather humbling.

The sport has a wide range of risks and responsibilities, here's an example:

                     Silverlit pusher <------> Foamy <-------> IC Trainer

Is a local council going to ban kids from flying a Silverlit ?  The IC trainer is an obvious situation.

As a reflection of this, my club won't me let take the 'A' on the PA Addiction, its too light and too easy to represent a proper responsibility. 

Hence I go from trying to emulate the 3D hooligans to sedate circuits on an IC trainer in the same afternoon.

In retrospect, I didn't feel ready to approach a club until I could actually do something, I guess others feel this way and it has little to do with socialbility and more to do with pride.

Cheers

Andy 

[Richard Sharman]

I taught myself  to fly 40 years ago on 4-channel, 25-powered high wing trainer, at a local cricket field.  And yes, it went home in a plastic bag most times, only re-ermerging weeks later after extensive re-building.  Progress was slow, there were few clubs, no BMFA, no simulators, and most radio equipment was "temperamental" to say the least! I went on to fly pattern aerobatics, scale, and full-size as well, so I don't think I did too badly.

However, take it from me -  you don't have to do it that way today!  (and you probably shouldn't even try anyway - it's too slow, too dangerous, and can be disheartening at times).  Nowadays, there are lots of  clubs, simulators, insurance, BMFA, etc etc.  It's a different world whether we like it or not.

My basic advice is -- "find a friend" -- that may be through a club (we welcome new members) or whatever.  Then you can gradually get into the flying scene, pick up knowledge, experience, skills, find out what aspects of the hobby really interest you, what models to build/buy, how to fly and so on.  It's a great hobby for technical interest, skill development, and just sheer fun.

But a word of caution - you will need a lot of knowledge you never knew even existed, so even if you are a world expert in aeronautics, or IC engines, or radio control, or air traffic control, or whatever - you've only just begun! But it will be worthwhile. 

[Jack Bagley]

I ltaught myself to fly some 50 yrs ago as we lived in comparative isolation. I had built a few KK scale kits with varying degrees of success, Auster Aiglet, Luscombe Silvaire, Spitfire that always wanted to gyrate into mother Earth after the rubber tension ran out! and so on. Many free flight models followed, some of which were Hot performers for their day, the Slickers by Bill dean in particular with Mills engines mostly performed well,(if you remembered to light the D/T fuse) they tended to drift and drift if not, especially in the off shore winds up here. Radio was next, talk about flights of fright! I built a Rudder Bug by Walt Good, single channel radio of doubtful manufacture with thermionic Valves, batteries which now seem as big as a house and with hit and miss quality, you had to tune the TX to the RX, which took an age,all the time depleting the battery capacity so that by the time you actually started the motor and hurled the lot into the air, the battery had become exhausted and we were usually in a brilliant free flight runaway situation! Wonderful! Things did improve gradually and I eventually got hold of a secondhand 10 Channel reed radio outfit for £15!!!  This led to bigger air frames, bigger engines and bigger mistakes, but eventually persiverance paid off. Used to read with open eyed wonder the pages of the magazines of the things the experts were managing to do with similar gear, they were regarded as Gods! Things like consecutive loops, spins, figures of eights, WOW!, one day perhaps we thought!Then proportional radio hit us with a BANG, no more playing Griegs piano concerto on the reed keys to get a smooth response! just gently move the sticks and things seemed to work like a dream after all that. I feel that nowadays with the rule book about a foot thick, an awful lot of magic has disapeared from the hobby, where ARTF's just don't cut the mustard in my view, We also have to accept very low modelling skills, scale models that just are not scale, mediocre at best. Some of us still build and fly quality stuff in isolation. Teach yourself to fly nowadays?  A rare thing, as I've ststed, the rule book is a foot thick. However best wishes to you all, Jack

[Phillip Howcroft]

I've been dipping in & out of the hobby for the last 15 years, started off in a club becuase there was one handy on teh station i was posted to.  However what gripped me the most was the building  - especially after demolishing my trainer (thats engineers for you). I didnt pick up much flying experience becuase the people at the club were mainly interested in flying themselves and wouldnt take the time to teach.  They would help while it was on the ground in setting up, but then would wander off to do their own thing.  The biggest difficulty I had (and Sims CANT help here) was with depth perception, all my crashes were caused by not working out the distance relationships between the model and other objects in its path. This was usually when trying bump and runs, always caught the runway marker & its huge, i wa concentrating on keeping the model level and on a nice descent.  The crashes always looked good & could be used in any action film

So left that place and couldnt find a club initially on my next posting - in the middle of the yorkshire moors. but plenty of open area - easiest way to loose a model as it sails off into the blue yonder.  So stopped there untill i could work with someone.  kept on building & finishing small scale models - big airfix kits.  Then after a while sold up everything as i was leaving teh country and probably wouldnt bother again as i had lost interest.

Lately a Sim has got me back into it, which in turn led to the RCME magazine, then this forum.  It was on one of these that someone, Timbo i think,  mentioned an EPP flying wing trainer.  It was easy to build, slow and easy to fly (only tryed going in a straight line and let it land on its own) . I will probably look for a club in this area to try it on more manouvers but the field of got is perfect to learn this simmple thing, amd my daughter is interested too so she can let it glide in without causeing damage.  It can bounce really high & hard and still bein one piece - perfect begginers model i'd say.

The Sim thing though is a bit misleading becuase I am the best aerobatic pilot in the world on that thing but I know if i tried that in real life it would be a mess on the floor in less than a minute.  But it does teach you what the Tx is for and will "condition" you to use the Tx correclty so it does have its uses.  I also like it for the 'copters becuase my local shop wont let me have one yet - nor my wife (too many toys )

 Lastly these forums have been good - Timbo is a god ? read a lot of stuff by him andf the others who offer constructive critism  which stick in your mind and would help anyone new to it. 

In summary - you've got to start somewhere, circumstances & interest will dictate whether you end up in a club or not.  Some people just arent that interested an the foamy is a toy nothing more to them.  Thinks that enough for my first post.

ps spell checker wont work - poo

[Tim Mackey]

Phillip Howcroft wrote (see)

Lately a Sim has got me back into it, which in turn led to the RCME magazine, then this forum. It was on one of these that someone, Timbo i think, mentioned an EPP flying wing trainer. It was easy to build, slow and easy to fly (only tryed going in a straight line and let it land on its own) . I will probably look for a club in this area to try it on more manouvers but the field of got is perfect to learn this simmple thing, amd my daughter is interested too so she can let it glide in without causeing damage. It can bounce really high & hard and still bein one piece - perfect begginers model i'd say.

I rest my case m'lord.

PS how nice to find a member who has only previously entered the freebie competitions actually contribute a post - well done sir.

[Phillip Howcroft]

I prefer to read everything first before making a reply - also been been conditions not to comment unless its constructive.  22 years serving queen and country teaches you to be conservative with your speach - plus engineering world teaches it to be consise and factual.  Not much fun a at parties for chit caht - just cant get the had of that at all.

[Malcolm Fisher]

I see your point - I missed out on that one as well...

 I must disagree with Rick about being in control of a two or three channel model - all that is needed is anticipation - you learn to start a turn earlier to make it happen where you want it to occur, and co-ordinate elevator input to adjust the rate of turn.

 I prefer having the proper control in all three axes that ailerons give, but can still put a rudder elevator controlled model where I want it to be whether it has power or not.

Some of my models have been controlled by ailerons and elevator, and the same sort of anticipation is needed although aileron initiated turns are generally quicker than rudder elevator, but can be risky at low levels if a late turn is needed on a landing approach.