Collection of vintage engines to be sold / rehomed

[Ubergeekian]

I'm new here - please forgive me if it shows.

I am tidying up the affairs of an deceased elderly man who left behind him a collection of vintage model aircraft engines. Many of them are easy to identify, because they are boxed and unused:

A.M. “10” 1
Cokol 2.5
Cox Pee Wee 0.327
DC Bambi 0.15
DC Merlin 0.76
ED Bee Mk1 S2 1
ED Cadet 1
ED Cadet 1
ED Cadet 1
ED Diesel Mk2 2
ED Hornet 1.46
ED Racer R/c Super 2.46
ED Sea Otter MkII 3.46
ED Viking MkII 4.9
Embee 0.75
Frog 1.75
Frog 349 0.347
Frog 50 0.5
Irvine 0.75
Jena 1
Kiel Kraft 6
Kingcat 1.49
ME Heron 0.97
ME Snipe 1.49
Mills 0.75
Quickstart Dart 0.036
Webra 2.46
ED MkIII 2.49
Elfin BB 1.49
Elfin 2.49

There are another fifteen unboxed: knowing the owner I imagine that they are all British engines of similar age to the above.

I'd welcome suggestions about the best way to find new homes for these while realising a fair amount of cash (fair is fine) for the heirs. Ebay? Dealers? Exhibitions?

Ian

[Robin Colbourne]

It all depends upon the amount of effort you are prepared to put in. With a good, detailed description, plenty of photos (you are allowed up to 12 free) and offering postage worldwide, Ebay will probably get you the highest prices. Unless an engine is 'new in box', a photo of it actually running will give people confidence that they are getting something they can use.

For sale ads here and on the BMFA site will get quite a number of views, although probably UK only and only currently active fliers. Bear in mind that for British diesels, there are a lot of potential customers in Australia and New Zealand too.

Auction houses may get good prices, but they could have hefty commissions too. Plus unless it is a huge collection, they won't be prepared to spend a lot on advertising.

Dealers need to make their cut too, so you will be lucky to get 50% of the retail value, plus any which are tatty or incomplete they may not want. Exhibitions could cost you a fortune for a stall, and you may not sell many. It all depends upon the crowd on the day. Maybe something like an Old Warden vintage model day would work, but it would be weather dependent, and I have no idea on stall prices. You also need to watch if you have big crowd around you that nothing 'disappears'. This is why the professional dealers, like Mike Clanford, have glass cabinets on their stalls.

I would suggest searching eBay completed items to try an gauge a value for each engine, and put them on with a starting price which would be acceptable, and a buy it now equal to that of the top 75% of comparable engines. You can always relist at a lower price if it doesn't sell. (Note, 'buy it now' price must be 40% higher than auction starting price). 'Auction only' makes things difficult for people abroad, as the auction may be ending in the early hours of the morning for them.

Sunday and Wednesday evenings (7 to 10pm) tend to be good times to have an auction ending. Also aim to have it ending near the end of the month when people are getting paid. Spring (March & April) is a time when people start thinking about flying again, so for the used engines that would be a good time to list them.

Bear in mind that eBay take 10% of your postage fee in commission too, so factor that in to your pricing, and don't send anything without insurance to cover at least a significant part of its value. My Hermes cover up to £50 if you book directly with them, Royal mail i up to £30 (I think) on a certificate of posting.

Don't skimp on packaging. Remove the needle valve and silencer, put these and any screws in a ziplock bag, wired to the engine. Any instructions or original paperwork need to go in another ziplock bag, in case the engine leaks oil in transit. At least an inch of bubble wrap in all directions, a sturdy corrugated cardboard box, and write the destination house number and post code, plus your own,directly on the box, in case a label comes off. I glue all the flaps on boxes I send, with PVA glue as well as taping them, it makes them much, much more robust.

Flitehook sell used engines of interest to vintage free flight modellers, so they could be worth contacting, if ebay sounds hard work!  http://www.flitehook.net/?page_id=113

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 19/02/2016 15:42:39

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Some lovely old engines on there. I hope you find good homes for them....

Gildings Auctioneers occasionally have sales of Vintage Engines....

[Robin Colbourne]

Just had a look on eBay.  The last few Allbon Bambis sold went for between £157 and £206. How does that compare to the price of gold by weight? Bearing in mind that a lump of gold isn't much use for powering a small free flight model...

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 19/02/2016 16:27:12

[Ubergeekian]

Many thank for those replies - please do keep 'em coming if anyone has any more bright ideas. It sounds to me as if it will be worth my spending some time on eBay. I definitely won't have time to get them running, though, so however they are sold it will have to be on that basis.

At some point I am going to have to open the five boxes of flying model kits I've just found. And I don't mean "five boxed kits" ...

Ian

Edited By Ubergeekian on 19/02/2016 17:48:43

[kc]

Robins advice seems very sound. I would add that a photo of the box too would be a good idea & add value to collectors.

Also find out if the Mills is an original British one rather than Indian 'copy'

DC is same as Albon isn't it?

[Simon Chaddock]

If they are BNIB (brand new in box) do not ever consider running the engines. Their value to a collector will drop by 50%.

Selling each engine/kit individually would probably give the best return but it would require quite a bit of research and take some time to achieve so you might find using a professional auction house in a specialist sale the best way to go.

It would require little input from you (you can even ask them to establish sensible 'reserve' prices) but they do charge a significant commission.

I wish I had your problem!

[Ubergeekian]

Posted by kc on 19/02/2016 17:59:25:

Robins advice seems very sound. I would add that a photo of the box too would be a good idea & add value to collectors.

Also find out if the Mills is an original British one rather than Indian 'copy'

DC is same as Albon isn't it?

I will remember to photograph the boxes. The Mills is definitely an original British. It was actually supplied as the power unit for a plastic hydroplane, which I also have, new and boxed, though alas the propeller has gone walkabout at some point over the past fifty (?) years.

I am not, as you'll have gathered, an expert in the history of model engines (though as an engineer I have to say that they are fascinating, especially the tiny ones) but I have consulted Dr Google and it seems that Allbon merged with Davies-Charlton progressively in the years up to 1952 (http://modelenginenews.org/people/dc_ltd.html)

It's interesting that at least two of the companies involved in this collection, DC and ME, were Isle of Man based.

I'm rambling. Many thanks.

[Ubergeekian]

Posted by Simon Chaddock on 19/02/2016 18:11:03:

If they are BNIB (brand new in box) do not ever consider running the engines. Their value to a collector will drop by 50%.

Selling each engine/kit individually would probably give the best return but it would require quite a bit of research and take some time to achieve so you might find using a professional auction house in a specialist sale the best way to go.

It would require little input from you (you can even ask them to establish sensible 'reserve' prices) but they do charge a significant commission.

I wish I had your problem!

Many thanks for that. I wish I had time to get to know this world more, but I have a whole house to deal with and the engines are a very small part of my problems. Anyone want half a ton (I'm not joking) of assorted model engineering and model flight magazines?

[kc]

Personally I collect old RC magazines.

There is a specialist market for old model magazines one is http://www.magazineexchange.co.uk/model-aircraft/ and another is Tee Publishing - http://www.teepublishing.co.uk/rare-magazines/ who mostly do model engineering -

[Robin Colbourne]

Given the extra information regarding kits and magazines, it does sound like one heck of a lot of work to find new homes for this lot. This is something that heirs often overlook when inviting someone with a bit more knowledge than them to help.

You might consider putting together a list with as much detail as possible about the whole lot, and circulating it to the various engine collectors and buyers and see who comes up with the highest offer.

A look through ebay reveals the following 'completed item' prices. There appears to be a fair bit of shill bidding going on, as several engines sold but were relisted. Usually the same sellers too! (A bit of a rodent-ish whiff!)

Some of the rare engines were not available Brand New in Box, so I've just used the highest price shown.

Tallying up the ones listed , you're looking at upwards of £2500 if they really are Brand New in Box.

A.M. “10” 1 £40 to £50
Cokol 2.5 £20 Its a Sokol and they weren't great!
Cox Pee Wee 0.327 £40
DC Bambi 0.15 £175
DC Merlin 0.76 £40 to £75
ED Bee Mk1 S2 1 £70 to £100
ED Cadet 1 £80
ED Cadet 1 £80
ED Cadet 1 £80
ED Diesel Mk2 2 £35
ED Hornet 1.46 £35
ED Racer R/c Super 2.46 £100
ED Sea Otter MkII 3.46 £60
ED Viking MkII 4.9 £250
Embee 0.75 £50
Frog 1.75 £195
Frog 349 0.347 £100
Frog 50 0.5 £125
Irvine 0.75 £105
Jena 1 £30
Kiel Kraft 6 £150
Kingcat 1.49 £50+ (£100+ if deluxe)
ME Heron 0.97 £50+ (some are £100 maybe a red tank makes it worth more?)
ME Snipe 1.49 £80 to £90
Mills 0.75 £130
Quickstart Dart 0.036 £50 to £80
Webra 2.46 £100
ED MkIII 2.49 £60+ (probably considerably more if BNIB)
Elfin BB 1.49 £100+
Elfin 2.49 £110+

Ultimately anything is only worth what someone is prepared to pay.

Robin

[kevin b]

Pm sent.

[Engine Doctor]

For the best price and coverage definitely e-bay. Set the starting price to that of what you are happy with.insist on PayPal and follow e-bay guides on postage, don't skimp or you won't be covered their sellers protection scheme.l have been collecting old English engines for some years now and keep an eye on e-bay prices and all of the engines you list with the exception of Cox a ME should get excellent prices. The Cox are very common, stillcolectable but not as collectable as English engines. ME Snipe and Heron do t seem to do as well as others for some reason but everynow and agin get high prices if new,boxed and unused. Used slightly used will devalue them considerably. Dont forget all English engines were test run at factory so if they are gummed dont be tempted to free them off. Leave that to new owner .Providing your starting price is OK you should do well. Good luck.

[Ubergeekian]

Thank you very much indeed for going to so much trouble. It's obviously going to be worth taking some care with the rehoming.

Ian

Posted by Robin Colbourne on 19/02/2016 21:05:48:

Given the extra information regarding kits and magazines, it does sound like one heck of a lot of work to find new homes for this lot. This is something that heirs often overlook when inviting someone with a bit more knowledge than them to help.

You might consider putting together a list with as much detail as possible about the whole lot, and circulating it to the various engine collectors and buyers and see who comes up with the highest offer.

A look through ebay reveals the following 'completed item' prices.

[Engine Doctor]

One thing I forgot to add was start and end the auction on a week end . It usually gets a better response/ price .

[Robin Colbourne]

Ubergeekian, you're welcome! Its good to know that thanks to you, these engines, models and magazines are likely to get back in the hands of people who will appreciate them.

By the way, a bit more research suggests a new in box ED Mark 2 could be worth around £140.

**LINK**

I concur with what Engine Doctor said, particularly about not being tempted to run, clean or oil the 'brand new in box' engines. Preserving the original boxes, packaging and paperwork in the best possible condition is essential for the real aficionados. If you do go down the Ebay route, its worth stating how you will pack the engine and its box to preserve it, so they can bid in confidence that everything will still be in the same condition when they get it.

I recently bought a camera from Ebay which was shown in its original box. On receipt, I found the seller had wrapped the whole camera box with brown 2" parcel tape, and that was despite being packed under a layer of bubble wrap. After a lot of effort, I managed to peel all the tape off with minimal damage, but the box is still sticky. Grrrr!!!

[Nigel R]

Ubergeekian

I think the Ebay route advised above will net you the most cash. It's quite an effort for a lot of engines (I also have a lot - around 60 - to list in the near future) but you'll get the best exposure and value. The advice about touching nothing is good, too, the "brand new in box" should mean just that for highest value.

Post pictures of the unidentified engines, I'm sure there will be responses from the knowledgeable collectors on this forum.

Posted by Robin Colbourne on 21/02/2016 11:56:58:

I recently bought a camera from Ebay which was shown in its original box. On receipt, I found the seller had wrapped the whole camera box with brown 2" parcel tape, and that was despite being packed under a layer of bubble wrap. After a lot of effort, I managed to peel all the tape off with minimal damage, but the box is still sticky. Grrrr!!!

I must admit I would be filing a claim for "not as described" and ask for a partial refund, if the seller had damaged the box. Ebay will generally go with the purchaser if something like this is raised.

[Shaun Marshall]

hi ive sent you a pm re the 1/2 ton magazines you have

[Peter Android]

I must admit I would be filing a claim for "not as described" and ask for a partial refund, if the seller had damaged the box. Ebay will generally go with the purchaser if something like this is raised.

........................................

Was the seller selling a Camera ? or a Box ?

Unfortunately this is how I got ripped off , As a genuine bona - fide Ebay seller , though I don't use it often , with 100% Pos feedback , a " gentleman " falsely claimed that the goods were " not as described" then filed a Paypal claim which they upheld , despite me clearly listing that viewing was welcomed prior to purchase .

To add insult to injury , the claimant then neglected to return the supposed " not as described " item . and lied to Ebay stating they had returned said item . Paypal had already made a final decision.

End result , I lost both the item and monies .

So, with very few exceptions , I will only accept paypal GIFT on any most items - posted to protect myself.

Be aware , there are some very cute - cookies out there who deliberately and criminally manipulate the whole paypal system to their advantage.

I am happy to say , that most fellow bmfa members realise this , and I have no issues with bmfa members purchasing from me - via paypal gift and have done so in the past few days. and in the past.

Cheers. P

[Ubergeekian]

Posted by Peter Android on 22/02/2016 15:08:01:

Unfortunately this is how I got ripped off , As a genuine bona - fide Ebay seller , though I don't use it often , with 100% Pos feedback , a " gentleman " falsely claimed that the goods were " not as described" then filed a Paypal claim which they upheld , despite me clearly listing that viewing was welcomed prior to purchase .

To add insult to injury , the claimant then neglected to return the supposed " not as described " item . and lied to Ebay stating they had returned said item . Paypal had already made a final decision.

End result , I lost both the item and monies .

My only bad eBay experience (my feedback rating is about 1300) was with someone to whom I sold a pair of old Bakelite telephones. He got in touch when they had arrived to say that one had a large star crack in it and that he therefore wanted half his money back. Since I had very carefully polished both telephones (Top Tip: Brasso!) I was a little surprised and wondered if it had been damaged in the post. I asked for a photo. He flatly refused. I asked again. He flatly refused. I offered to refund his money and pay for all postage if he returned them to me. He flatly refused.

Either I return half his money, he said, or he would leave negative feedback. I flatly refused and reported him to eBay. They did nothing. I got the negative feedback. Meh.

[Nigel R]

Posted by Peter Android on 22/02/2016 15:08:01:

Was the seller selling a Camera ? or a Box ?

Unfortunately this is how I got ripped off , As a genuine bona - fide Ebay seller , though I don't use it often , with 100% Pos feedback , a " gentleman " falsely claimed that the goods were " not as described" then filed a Paypal claim which they upheld , despite me clearly listing that viewing was welcomed prior to purchase .

To add insult to injury , the claimant then neglected to return the supposed " not as described " item . and lied to Ebay stating they had returned said item . Paypal had already made a final decision.

End result , I lost both the item and monies .

So, with very few exceptions , I will only accept paypal GIFT on any most items - posted to protect myself.

Be aware , there are some very cute - cookies out there who deliberately and criminally manipulate the whole paypal system to their advantage.

I am happy to say , that most fellow bmfa members realise this , and I have no issues with bmfa members purchasing from me - via paypal gift and have done so in the past few days. and in the past.

Cheers. P

In this case it sounds like selling the box was part of the camera sale. If a seller has taken pictures of it, then I'd expect the things in the pictures to arrive in the condition in the pictures. Just playing devils advocate if you sell (for instance) a mint condition boxed dinky toy its worth something, wheras with a knackered box its worth lots less...

I sympathise with your position though, the whole Ebay/Paypal scheme is open to some abuse.

I'm surprised that Paypal didn't want postal proof from your "gentleman" that he had posted and returned the item to you and that you had signed and received it.

[Manish Chandrayan]

"Also find out if the Mills is an original British one rather than Indian 'copy'"

To set the records straight, the Indian Mills were and are the only legal Mills after the rights and tooling were purchased by Aurora Mfg of Calcutta. All other Mills produced were copies.

If one is talking about quality of the engines, it is a different story

[Robin Colbourne]

With regard to the tape covered camera box, I took no further action as it was the seller's first eBay sale, it did arrive promptly and otherwise the camera was as described. With hindsight I should have sent him a message suggesting he doesn't wrap boxes in tape in future, if he wants to keep his customers sweet!

Hi Manish, Do you know what the current story is regarding the Aurora produced Mills? I read some threads from about four years ago suggesting that Rishi Kumar, the son of Suresh, the founder, was seeking a buyer for this side of the business. Is there any model diesel engine production either from the original Aurora/Kumar company or from the buyer if one was found?

My Indian Mills 1.3 must have slipped through their quality control, as its superb!

[Manish Chandrayan]

Hello Robin

Last when I had spoken to Rishi, he was still interested in selling the tooling and rights. As of now he is not making any. There was another Indian firm from Calcutta who had produced few .75 copies but that was found out by Aurora and a cease and desist notice was served post which they did not make any.

I too have had a couple of Mills .75 mostly in Tomboy's and never had any issues with them. I do currently have the Irvine .75 and 1.3 set NIB. So guess I too was lucky like you.

The only diesels being manufactured today in India are by Sharma Models of Jodhpur. They do closely resemble the PAW line

[Robin Colbourne]

Hello Manish, Thank you for your update on Aurora and the Mills story.