Looking for a new plane need advice

[Jon H]

Posted by Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 13:50:11:

I'm not a member of a club and fly almost always on my own, so I do rely on forums quite a bit, but I get my friend to show me a few of the basics about stalling as he seems to be able to fly and land far better than I.

I would be very cautious about where you fly something as big and heavy as an acrowot if you are not at a club field. I dont know where you are flying, but that is really quite well out of park fly territory. I assume you have BMFA insurance? if not that really is a must!

[Chris Lee123]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 10/06/2016 14:17:04:

Posted by Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 13:50:11:

I'm not a member of a club and fly almost always on my own, so I do rely on forums quite a bit, but I get my friend to show me a few of the basics about stalling as he seems to be able to fly and land far better than I.

I would be very cautious about where you fly something as big and heavy as an acrowot if you are not at a club field. I dont know where you are flying, but that is really quite well out of park fly territory. I assume you have BMFA insurance? if not that really is a must!

Yeah I have the insurance, I fly in a farmers field, its about 50 acre plus its surrounded by many many other fields so plenty of room to fly safely , only the odd horse to get in my way at the end of the strips!

[Chris Lee123]

[Chris Lee123]

I thought I would add the picture from the crash.

The was a large dent in the ground where it hit!

[Jon H]

Good stuff, just wanted to double check as it is not unheard of for people to not think about where they are flying. Sounds like you have a great setup.

As for the hole in the ground, that's a little one. When you need a spade to get it out then you have done a proper job!

[Chris Lee123]

I have heard of people having to dig the engines out of the mud, I hope that doesn't happen to me.

[Old Geezer]

I'd have to take issue with Phil's suggestion of a 60 size Pulse XT , I have an XT 25e and love it to bits -- but it's a slippery little thing, much nicer to land with into a breeze on the mains than trying for a 3 pointer in still air! Having said that - all the Pulses will fly in rather nicely balancing elevator and throttle - and the u/c's strong. (Even better, stick some big air wheels on it to take the sting out of less than perfect landings.)

John's suggestion of the Spacewalker has a lot of merit, but the wing section on mine was almost flat-bottomed so not quite so aerobatic - nice looker too, lands slower than the XT but treat it to some nice big wheels (see above).

[Phil 9]

Posted by Gurth Scriven 2 on 10/06/2016 17:56:55:

I'd have to take issue with Phil's suggestion of a 60 size Pulse XT , I have an XT 25e and love it to bits -- but it's a slippery little thing, much nicer to land with into a breeze on the mains than trying for a 3 pointer in still air! Having said that - all the Pulses will fly in rather nicely balancing elevator and throttle - and the u/c's strong. (Even better, stick some big air wheels on it to take the sting out of less than perfect landings.)

John's suggestion of the Spacewalker has a lot of merit, but the wing section on mine was almost flat-bottomed so not quite so aerobatic - nice looker too, lands slower than the XT but treat it to some nice big wheels (see above).

I have to agree with that about the pulse. I think I had spoilerions setup on mine to try and help it down on those calm days but after a while you do get used to it and adjust your landing approach.

Edited By Phil 9 on 10/06/2016 18:10:11

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Chris I wonder if a 3D type model might work for you....these tend to have light wing loading & good low speed handling....yes they have massive control surfaces but you don't need to set up full movement....

Might provide a good halfway house....

[Jon H]

I would beg to differ about the pulse. I have owned 3 and flown 5 ranging from the smallest to the largest (never flown the 25 though) and find them all an absolute doddle to land, especially when its calm. They float in so slowly its unreal. Far slower than any spacewalker I have flown!

I wonder if the drag caused by the big prop idling away on the 4 strokes I used helped slow it down on the approach, but even without that, they are so docile and floaty I don't know how you guys got into trouble

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 10/06/2016 20:22:11

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

My missus can land a Spacewalker, they fly slowly in no atmosphere..that's why they're called Spacewalkers !!

Lecky motor on models of this size probably dwarf the ones on I.C models, why not just stick to recommendations .

John

[Chris Lee123]

I thought I would you give an update, after reading the advice given I decided to give the acro wot another go partly due to cost and availability.

 

I assembled it, modified it to fit my larger packs and flew it at the weekend. It seems nice and stable in even in the 20mph gusts which is very nice, did some loops and rolls, it seems loop better / more accurately than my foamies.

I gave it full throttle a couple of times and its nice and quick, faster than I expected although most of the time I was flying at half throttle and getting 10min flight time with 40% left which was very nice.

Landings need a LOT of practice but all of them were safe, no damage just a bit fast but im sure with practice they will get better.

 

The only think I don't like is the bottom loading battery hatch. I've had to do away with the battery tray as it wouldn't fit with my larger packs, but I may have a look at it this week and see if i can come up with something better.

Thanks for the advice

 

Edited By Chris Lee123 on 20/06/2016 14:17:07

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

You seem to be doing very well Chris and coming along nicely. Stick with it and I'm sure you'll have it mastered really soon.

Some cracking contributions on the whole matter of stalling - those videos Jon put up are really helpful and excellent examples of how to (and how not to!) do it. Just to emphahsise the point Jon is making;

1. in the first video watch his approach. Right from the start of the downwind leg he's powered back - probably not at idle, just low, and he's decending gradually nose slightly down. He will adjust his rate of descent, if he needs to, by making fine adjustments of his throttle. Once you get the knack of this it's actually the easy way to do it, because your just letting the aircraft do what comes naturally, a powered glide descent.

2. The second chap, he's breaking the rules - he is doing it far from naturally because he's slow (throttled back) but he's also nose up! Its like half of him is telling the aircraft to come down, but the other half is trying to resist that! A contradiction - it's only going to end in tears! The reality is he can't hold it up - he's too slow for that. So he probably tries to fix that by adding more elevator - big mistake, he's ignoring the rule that the elevator doesn't control height or rate of descent - the throttle does. If he is descending too fast what he needs is a tad more throttle, not more elevator. But it looks like he's not going down that route. Eventually he has too much elevator in, the angle of attack of the wing is more than the air flow can accommodate, the flow breaks away from the top surface of the wing and that's the stall. If you are lucky this will be a sort of gradual process of breakaway, you'll get warnings (wing rocking, mushy vague ailerons etc). Nice friendly models, like the Acro Wot do this quite gently. Nasty, challenging, but lovely(!) models, like most warbirds, give you at best one quick warning then wham! Just like that one in the video! That's why you need experience to fly them - you have to be unlikely the have the problem (because you know about it) or if it does happen you can spot the signs really quickly and get on it.

The problem a lot of leaners have is a sort of reluctance to let the aircraft come down close to the ground. The ground is nasty, it breaks aeroplanes, there is a bit of you that doesn't want to go there, but you have to! This is where practicing approaches comes in as has been suggested above. Fly several circuits, making the approach down to say 15 feet, then gradually (as Dave says) open up and fly away. Then down to 10 feet, 5 feet. Then turn it into an actual "touch and go". All this practice will make you more confident when the model is close to the ground and get you used to seeing it there.

Fixing a stall? Well when it happens like the one in the second video posted by Jon there really isn't a lot you can do unless you are very lucky. It takes hieght to fix a stall and he hasn't got very much. The is an old saying in flying "Height, Speed and Ideas; as long as you have two of three you'll be OK" Unfortunately he might have some ideas (although they might be wrong ones!) he certainly doesn't have either height or speed, so he's stuffed really! The only solution to that problem is don't go there in the first place or if you do pick up on the signs damn early and as fDave H says) don't be ashamed to swallow your pride, open up the fires and abort the landing. Better a bit of banter from your mates about a called off landing than the "walk of shame" with the black bin bag and a big repair job afterwards!

If you do have height then you can use it to fix the problem. The solution is dead easy - just a bit counter intuitive. Let the nose come down, this lets the air flow reattach to the top of wing, the wing starts producing lift again, open the throttle gently and level out. Simple - but you need height, in a fully developed flick like the one in the second video where you end up vertical nose down you might need 50 feet or even more with a model that big to reestablish the flow, some flying speed and have space to pull out. The pull out needs to be gentle, if you jerk it out you'll just stall the wing again! This is obviously often a balancing act - need to be gentle but running out of airspace rapidly - the ground is gtting mighty close!

Finally one thing to remember. We have been talking here about stalls that tend to happen at low speed - on approach. Don't go away with the idea that a stall is caused by flying too slow - it isn't. It's caused be having too high an angle of attack. That in turn is very likely to happen when you are going slow and seeking lift. But its not the going slow that actualky caused the stall - its the angle of attack going slow was causing you to use in order to maintain hieght or control descent. In other words its the elevator that stalls aircraft - nothing else. You don't need to worry about this too much at present, just be aware of it. But when you start trying out more advanced aerobatics it does become important that you fully understand this - because it means that an aircraft is quite capable of stalling no matter how fast its going!

But that's one for later in your learning curve - for now just get these landings spot on! Enjoy!

BEB

[Chris Lee123]

Cool thanks for the advice, its very helpful.

I'm quite lucky as I have a fairly long strip to land on so plenty of room to practice.

[cymaz]

Rudder is really important when landing. Use it to line up the plane to the runway, avoid aileron. As a bit of practise start by tanking there is a rod that joins the aileron and rudder together, right aileron right rudder and so on. Also a bit of rudder/elevator only flying will be good for getting the hang of rudder control.

Throttle is important for landing as well. If you are short increase throttle, too long shut throttle earlier.

Enjoy and good luck.

[David Davis]

I agree with Cymaz! Getting used to using the rudder is important. If you have a basic trainer, like a Telemaster, , try this as an exercise. Pick a calm day, climb to altitude and try to fly a slow horizontal figure of eight, at a constant altitude, just using the rudder and the throttle. The rudder controls direction, the throttle controls height. Leave the ailerons and elevator alone! You can do it with other models but the stability of a basic trainer helps when you are starting out.

You'd be surprised how much it helps your landings.

[ChrisB]

Hi Chris, obviously its long gone now but did you strip everything off the old acrowot, horns, clevises pushrods etc? If you did then great, you've now got some spares etc should you ever need them in the future. If not then not but just something to think about. Its amazing how you collect odds and sods over time.

If in doubt wings level!

Cheers

CB

[Chris Lee123]

Posted by ChrisB on 20/06/2016 19:20:20:

Hi Chris, obviously its long gone now but did you strip everything off the old acrowot, horns, clevises pushrods etc? If you did then great, you've now got some spares etc should you ever need them in the future. If not then not but just something to think about. Its amazing how you collect odds and sods over time.

If in doubt wings level!

Cheers

CB

I stripped a few bits of but not as much as I should have tbh. I was a bit annoyed at the time and very close to the bonfire.

Its the first crash I've had with either a Heli or a Plane which has annoyed me, usually I just laugh it off.

[Chris Lee123]

I do use the rudder quite a lot as it is, I guess that comes from flying helis.

Hopefully I'll get out tonight and practice some more landings.

[Chris Lee123]

I thought I shouldadd some picture of it in one piece!

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Very nice too!

Here is a picture of mine alongside its close stable buddy a Wots Wot!

Both fly very well and are a joy to have around at the field. But they do fly differently!

BEB

[Chris Lee123]

The wotawot does look nice.

I flew a bi plane the other day was incredibly fast but hardly any control, i think the engine was a bit too powerfull for it. After 30+ years it died.