Looking for a new plane need advice

[Chris Lee123]

I have been flying foamies for a year or so now, I recently got a foame acrowot and think its briliant. I like it so much I decided to buy a balsa Acrowot.

I flew it tonight and it flew well but not as I had expected. After 3 flights it is now on the bonfire, smoking nicely....

I think it stalled as I was coming in for landing and smashed it to bits. I guess i'm used to the foamies which fly very nicely slowly.

I would like another wooden electric plane, but I would like one which is specifically designed for electric from day one rather than a conversion. I would also like to be able to use my 6s 5000mah lipos as I have 16 of them for the helis.

ARTF is a must.

After tonight perhaps something easier to fly, or harder to stall or perhaps I should just fly faster. I don't really want another acro wot as getting the packs in and out was a bit of a pain, it was designed for the larger packs.

Can anyone recommend anything suitable?

[Dave Hopkin]

Take a look at the Seagull E-Pioneer - traditional high wing trainer shape, good wing span, flies a treat, will fly very very slowly, two part wing for transport flies well in the wind too

Lipo fits underneath so dead easy access

No mater what else I take to the field she goes in too, looking very tatty now because she's been flown so much!!!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Spacewalker fits the bill lipo wise, steady flyer with no nasty habits, do's a bit if/when you ready for it, good intro model to a low winger.

John

[Phil 9]

6s 500mah is perfect for a pulse xt 60

[sgwlm]

Have a look at sebart, can't go wrong

[MattyB]

Posted by sgwlm on 10/06/2016 00:03:23:
Have a look at sebart, can't go wrong

As he just crashed a balsa Acrowot ARTF and is asking for something easier to fly a Sebart model does not seem like a very sensible next step. Yes they fly great, but they are incredibly precise with no stability built into the design. They are also intentionally built light for high performance and will not suffer the knocks a relative newcomer is likely to deal them.

What he needs is a robust aileron trainer, but the problem is not many trainees are designed for the expensive 6S 5000 packs he has. Some lateral thinking may be required... Seagull do a few balsa ARTF Cubs, maybe the 75 sized one might be a good option? Or you could always push the boat out and try the new 15cc version from H9.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Chris,

I am really sorry to learn you had a bad experience with your larger, heavier, AcroWot. But I think your requirements for a replacement may add up to a unachievable mix! Maybe it would help your choice process if you understood better where you probably went wrong? Possibly I can help with that?

You say you have done a lot of flying with foamies. That's great - I like foamies too! But the problem is that, other than the fact that the controls do "basically" the same thing, there is actually surprisingly little commonality in terms of flying skills between a very lightweight foamie and larger heavier model aeroplane. This is because the energy management problem becomes very different and the wing loading is in a completely different territory.

Foamies weigh very little and so store very little kinetic energy and have very low inertia. The result is they turn and accelerate almost instantly.

They also have incredibly light wing loading - often well below 10oz per sq ft. This means their wings are very "under-used" lift-wise - i.e. they have loads of spare lift capacity. So, they can hold the aircraft up and at the same time provide the sideways thrust to "turn on a sixpence" - and of course the force required to do this ultra tight turn on this very light model is also very small - because it has so little inertia! Its a "win-win" situation.

All this adds up to an aeroplane that can almost seem to defy gravity! It can accelerate in a instant out of trouble. Its response to throttle is like lightening. It can dodge and turn with amazing agility. If it stalls its low inertia is such that a quick nose down or blip of throttle will "pull it right". All aeroplanes should be like this!

But now compare the much heavier wooden AcroWot. This packs a lot more energy - so it takes more to "get it moving". And when it is moving its takes a lot more to stop and to redirect that movement (ie to turn). But it's worse than just that - you see this turning force, which we have just seen needs to be much greater, is also now also much harder to come by. Why? Because the wing is much more heavily loaded and so has less spare capacity. A wooden AcroWot has a wing loading of about 22oz/sqft - light by comparison with many scale models but much higher than its foamie brother at about 10oz/sqft. So its wing works harder and has less "spare" than the foamie to get you out of trouble! It can't "turn on a sixpence" because the wing just can't deliver that much excess unused lift force to act as a turning force. If you try to make it do this then the wing will simply give up, let go, and stall.

So you need to be gentler on the controls. Don't ask for floaty ultra-slow flight at a very high angle of attack - relying on the excess power and lift to keep you up! Always fly fast enough for the wing to work probably. Make bigger radius turns - don't assume that the wing is going to deliver outrageous amounts of additional spare lift - because it isn't!

Now - why do I think your requirements are unachievable, as I said in the opening? Because you want to use the 6s 5000 batteries. This dictates an even bigger model than the Acro-Wot - that will probably spell an even higher wing loading - it certainly spells more inertia and energy. In other words, whatever the problems you had with the AcroWot, you probably have them even larger with this replacement you are eyeing up!!

So, what's the solution? Well I think its in two parts:

1. You will just have to accept that you need to adapt your flying style to the different demands of a heavier model in terms of energy management and wing loading. If you don't then you will simply never master larger aircraft - no matter which one you choose! You can't solve this by selecting a different prototype - the solution is in your thumbs not in the model. The AcroWot is not a difficult to fly aeroplane - nor is it excessively loaded or twitchy. Most alternatives will be at least as challenging for you, if not more so.

2. I think you have a big part of the solution in is the first answer to your OP from Dave H - get a Seagull e-Pioneer. Reasonable compromise wing loading - high enough to teach you, low enough not to frighten you. Heavy enough to enable you to to learn to manage its energy, not so heavy that it behaves like a cruise missile! But - the Seagull e-Pioneer runs best on 4s batteries - so your 6s jobs find no home here. But I'd not worry about that to be honest. Get the e-Pioneer, learn to fly it really well - then get yourself a nice aerobat for the 6s batteries!

I hope this provides some food for thought and helps your deliberations!

BEB

If you really want a wooden model that flies like a floamie (!) then the only other suggestion I can think of off-hand is the Weston Hype 3D. But personally I think you'd be better with the e-Pioneer for now, learn to fly a heavier mainstream model, then come back to the Hype for some fun when you can then choose whether to fly it like a floamie or a heavier model!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/06/2016 04:06:05

[Denis Watkins]

It should be compulsory BEB, for every flyer to read your document, brilliant.

[Phil 9]

Posted by MattyB on 10/06/2016 02:38:09:

Posted by sgwlm on 10/06/2016 00:03:23:
Have a look at sebart, can't go wrong

As he just crashed a balsa Acrowot ARTF and is asking for something easier to fly a Sebart model does not seem like a very sensible next step. Yes they fly great, but they are incredibly precise with no stability built into the design. They are also intentionally built light for high performance and will not suffer the knocks a relative newcomer is likely to deal them.

What he needs is a robust aileron trainer, but the problem is not many trainees are designed for the expensive 6S 5000 packs he has. Some lateral thinking may be required... Seagull do a few balsa ARTF Cubs, maybe the 75 sized one might be a good option? Or you could always push the boat out and try the new 15cc version from H9.

good advice there. There are some larger trainers now available that will suit a 6s battery but they are designed for petrol engines. A conversion is not super difficult but the OP wanted and electric design.

an Irvine tutor 40 is now set up for both EP and IC and would be a great choice here but will need a smaller battery, A puls xt 60 may still be an option if you can get help (ie you are in a club) as it make a good low wing trainer. but a basic trainer is probably the best option here

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by MattyB on 10/06/2016 02:38:09:

Posted by sgwlm on 10/06/2016 00:03:23:
Have a look at sebart, can't go wrong

As he just crashed a balsa Acrowot ARTF and is asking for something easier to fly a Sebart model does not seem like a very sensible next step. Yes they fly great, but they are incredibly precise with no stability built into the design. They are also intentionally built light for high performance and will not suffer the knocks a relative newcomer is likely to deal them.

The Sebarts at our club seem to be quite light and land at quite a low speed, a lot lot slower than my Dynam Smoove!, the problem Chris had was stalling it on landing and not the precision or stability.

Chris has 5,000 mah 6s batteries from his helis, which suggests that he's not adverse to something that doesn't have a great deal of inbuilt stability. He was asking for a balsa/ply plane designed specifically for electric.

[Jon H]

I also agree with BEB on this one.

If i were you, i would just get another acrowot and try again. If you think you flew too slowly and stalled it then you already know what the likely cause was and wont do that again.

If you get another acrowot, put it together as before and go for a fly BUT get someone with experience of a heavier model to give you some assistance. Its very easy to get into trouble when moving from a small foamy to a larger/heavier balsa model and i have seen many many people come to grief. The same is true when they then want an CAP232 or a spitfire. They get into trouble, crash, and then everyone runs around saying that spitfires and CAP's are hard to fly and like to tip stall, none of which is true. The only problem was the pilots pushed the aircraft beyond their performance limits as they were used to a more docile aircraft.

I am responsible for training at my club and have a few rules in our training policy about this sort of thing. anyone who gets their A with something like a foamy discovery trainer and upgrades to something like the acrowot has to come back into training for a few flights so we can teach them the difference between the models and prevent it becoming a pile of bits first time out. We do the same when people step up to warbirds and also have multi engine training available to help deal with engine out situations correctly.

So anyway, i suggest you get another acrowot and get straight back on the horse. They are great models and quite benign. I am sure that with some help you will have it mastered in no time

[Chris Lee123]

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions its very much appreciated.

 

I did like the acro wot for all 15 mins lol. Going by the flights I had I would have got around 10 mins per flight which is another reason I wanted to use my 5 amp packs in it.

 

I think in the future I will go with BEB's suggestion of the high wing trainer and learn to fly a wooden model as it should be flown, but for now I think I will stick with my foam e and heli's, although a plane rekit is definitely cheaper than Trex 800!

 

As the heavier wooden planes don't like to be flown slowly, how do you come in slow enough to land? I managed to land the acro wot twice but it came in quite fast and used the whole landing strip.

 

Or maybe I will have a look and Ebay and see if any one has a cheap electric trainer for sale, it wont annoy me so much when I crash it then!

Edited By Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 09:11:58

[Frank Skilbeck]

look in bmfa classifieds too, some good buys there

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 09:10:32:

As the heavier wooden planes don't like to be flown slowly, how do you come in slow enough to land? I managed to land the acro wot twice but it came in quite fast and used the whole landing strip.

Its all down to wing loading - weight divided by wing area

A given wing section will produce less lift as the airspeed decreases, so the aircraft will start to sink, the higher the wing loading the faster the sink rate, so as wing loading increases the landing speed has to increase to keep the sink rate within acceptable rates

That all relates to airspeed NOT ground speed which is why you always land into the wind - if the wind is blowing at 10mph and the plane is travelling at a groud speed of 20mph the airspeed over the wing is 30mph - conversely try landing downwind and in that scenario and the airspeed is 10mph

Edited By Dave Hopkin on 10/06/2016 09:23:33

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Landing is probably THE key skill with fixed wing. If you want to see if someone really can fly well don't so much be impressed by the fancy aerobatics as the calm, uneventful, smooth landings in all conditions - always the hallmark of a very competent pilot in my view.

How - well its a long story and its probably best if you can get some instruction - even if only for a session or two to start you off. But basically fly a rectangular circuit approach. When going downwind start thinking about getting your height right. If you arrive on final approach too high you will have to lose that height - in doing that you'll gain excess speed. You don't want that so get the height right now. What height should it be? Well that's a judgement call and is based on experience. Not more 100 feet for sure - but the exact figure will depend on how big a circuit you are flying, how strong the wind is, what the model's characteristics are etc. Throttle back to start your descent towards the last third of this downwind leg.

Perform a descending turn onto the cross wind leg. This is all about continuing to lose height gradually and naturally. You shouldn't have to push the nose down - keeping the throttle low (not necessarily zero) will lead to the plane sinking in a nose down attitude - let it. The key judgement here is when to turn into wind and so onto finals. Ideally its at the point just opposite the strip centre line - but if you find yourself a bit high you can delay your turn in towards the strip and put in a slightly deeper turn in - giving yourself more space to lose height gradually. Similarly if you find you might be a bit low you can turn early and effectively "cut the corner".

Once on finals just let her come in. Really experienced pilots use the controls in a slightly counter intuitive way here. You control your rate of descent with the throttle (not the elevator). And you control your speed with the elevator (not your throttle!) If you are sinking too fast and will come in short (undershooting) open the throttle a tad; if you still a bit high and look like you will overshoot, close the throttle a tad. Either way its fine adjustments!

As I say the elevator is what s actually controlling your speed. pulling back lifts the nose, increases the drag and slows you down. Letting the stick come forward (you won;t have to push it) lets the nose drop and speeds you up. In the last portion of the approach, as you near the strip, ease back on the elevator and hold the nose just about level - letting the model sink and simultaneously slow down. Don't let it get too slow - if the wings start rocking, or the ailerons feel woolly, you're too slow and she's nearing the stall, so just let the nose down a tad to let her have a bit more speed.

Once at at 3 feet or so off the ground over the strip gradually start adding more and more up-elevator - pulling the nose passed the level position into a nose-up attitude. This is the flair, it will slow you right down and she should three-point for you then!

All that is easy to say - tales a lot of practice to get it right! One thing - don't be too hard on yourself, I agree with Jon the AcroWot is a great model but it does have one small weakness - its very "slippy" and does tend to come in a bit fast if you are not careful - especially on days with little or no wind.. So just practice your landings - remember its the elevator that will slow you down. Try a simulator to get the hang of it. If you can get a couple of sessions of instruction on this you will learn a lot faster.

BEB

[Chris Lee123]

"if the wings start rocking, or the ailerons feel woolly, you're too slow and she's nearing the stall"

That's exactly what was happening, at least I know the cause of the problem which is always a bonus.

Thanks for the detailed explanation it really does help, I may have to get my friend to show me how to land the heavier models.

[Darrell Woodward]

Posted by Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 09:10:32:

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions its very much appreciated.

I did like the acro wot for all 15 mins lol. Going by the flights I had I would have got around 10 mins per flight which is another reason I wanted to use my 5 amp packs in it.

I think in the future I will go with BEB's suggestion of the high wing trainer and learn to fly a wooden model as it should be flown, but for now I think I will stick with my foam e and heli's, although a plane rekit is definitely cheaper than Trex 800!

As the heavier wooden planes don't like to be flown slowly, how do you come in slow enough to land? I managed to land the acro wot twice but it came in quite fast and used the whole landing strip.

Or maybe I will have a look and Ebay and see if any one has a cheap electric trainer for sale, it wont annoy me so much when I crash it then!

Edited By Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 09:11:58

Sorry to hear of your loss, tis never nice to put effort in and loose it before time (10yrs old and oil soaked) .

Slow is relative to wing-loading and skill re energy management Chris, the latter IS gained from practical experience ie:

Gain some altitude and fly INTO a stall, this will teach you how the controls respond at diminished airspeed / how the plane reacts, it might waffle, drop a tip etc - easier to recover from 100ft+ than 10ft.

Learn the Glide characteristics of airframe, go up high, cut power and Glide down to X alt, open taps, gain height and do it again.

Fly round in the landing pattern doing touch and go's, having done the above you will be better able to judge your final approach glide angle / speed - the 'final touchdown' ideal is to have the model Almost stalled when the wheels touch terra-firma

Final approach to land is a slightly powered glide where power controls alt, touch down is a well controlled crash.... urrr...... stall in 'ideal conditions'

Get an experienced bod to stand with you for advise and Practice Practice Practice!

[Dave Hopkin]

And never be afraid to abort the landing and go round........

If you make a hash of the approach, its odds on that the landing will be a bad one, better to call it out, open the taps and go round again - BUT when you power up over the strip DONT try and climb out too quickly or roll into a turn to soon - that's a great way of provoking a low energy low altitude stall which is close to impossible to recover from!, let the speed build up in a very gradual climb out then when you have more speed and a bit more height start your turn into the crosswind leg - again keeping the climb out and bank angle as low as you can

[Jon H]

The 'wing rock of death' is a classic sign that the end is nigh!

I would also take a look at your control throws. Personally i wouldnt recommend you use any expo as this can lead to an overcontrol situation as you come up the expo curve. If the model is too twitchy like this turn your rates down. You want to aim to have the model come to a full stall off throttle with the elevator hard back at the stops. If you are stalling out with only 50% pull then its likely to be too much rate.

I know some will disagree with me, but i also recommend stalling the model at altitude a number of times to at least get some feel of where the limits are. You can try different power settings and attitudes as well. This is also in the training syllabus at my club. We go through stalling quite thoroughly so pilots know what it is, how to fix it, and most of all how to avoid it in the first place.

BEB's description of the landing approach is good although i personally favour a curved approach as i find its easier to judge airspeed as the model is not head on for as long as with a rectangular circuit. His comments about using power on approach are spot on and i use this method especially with my large warbirds as typically their elevator sensitivity drops when the flaps are down. Also, if i use power to slow my decent not elevator i do not increase my angle of attack and this helps keep me away from stalling.

[Chris Lee123]

How do you fix a stall? Just add power or dip the nose?

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 11:30:36:

How do you fix a stall? Just add power or dip the nose?

It depends upon the model, Chris. A forgiving trainer will stall so gently by putting its nose down slightly that you'll probably never even know it stalled. At the other end of the spectrum, some warbirds will drop a wing and spin down so violently that you'll never recover before you hit the ground.

Most of the aircraft that we're currently discussing will fall between these two extremes. If it drops a wing, on no account should you apply opposite aileron to level it unless you recover airspeed first. If you attempt this, the most likely outcome is a tank slapper series of spins in alternate directions until you run out of sky.

If there is sufficient height, simply do nothing (centre all sticks) until it recovers flying speed, then gently apply elevator and aileron to return to level flight. If you are on a landing approach, you may not have enough height to do this. At this point your options are limited: be gentle - lower the nose and gently apply power to tease the speed up. Don't just slam on full power or the torque will immediately roll it over. If you are gentle enough and lucky enough, you may just get away with it.

[Chris Lee123]

Well at least I know what a stall looks like and does now.

 

Well after I told my father what happened (and he stopped laughing) he reminded me that my Twist 40 (purchased second hand) was still in his garage with all the parts to get it flying again, it just needs the new elevators gluing on and the electrics re-installed.

I converted it last year and thought it had been thrown away, I was running it on 4s 3000mah packs but only getting 4 mins flight time which was a bit naff. As I already have it and don't need to spend any money on it I think I will get it up and flying and give it a go, but this time get my friend to give it a fly or two and make sure its all ok, as I was never happy with the way it flew, but then at the time I had only ever flown foam e's at the time. I think it should give me a bit of confidence in a heavier model and hopefully some practice with the landings. And then maybe later in the year or next year consider getting the acro wot again, or the pioneer.

I think the only thing I didn't like about the acro wot build was trying to get the my 5amp packs in as they don't fit as standard.

From what I have seen it is similar to the Hype 3D that BEB mentioned earlier.

"you can then choose whether to fly it like a floam e or a heavier model!" Is this because of the large, thick wings so it can be flown nice and slow without stalling? If so , to NOT fly it like a foam e what do I do ?

 

Please don't think that I am ignoring the advice about the Seagull E-Pioneer or another acro wot I am just trying to make do with what I have as i'm slightly reluctant to put another £180 on the bonfire.

Edited By Chris Lee 1 on 10/06/2016 13:44:06

[Jon H]

It sounds as though you might do well to seek some formal training from your clubmates as stalling/recovery is one of the real basic things you should know and should be taught.

As TWS has said above different models stall in slightly different ways and the recovery is slightly different depending on the situation.

But there are several basic actions that are a given. Firstly, more power and second level the elevator. The reason the second one is important is because stalling has nothing to do with speed. The angle of attack of the wing is what is important and beyond a certain angle the airflow cannot hang on to the wing and breaks away, taking all of our lift with it. The reason it normally happens at slow speed is because we crank the nose up in the air trying to stop the model falling when we are slow and our lift is reduced. This works to a point, but eventually the airflow/lift breaks down and that is a stall. In the case of a tip stall, one section of the wing towards the tip will stall first which creates a rolling moment towards the stalled wing. Adding aileron will further increase angle of attack and deepen the stall, ie, make the problem worse. With practice you can use corrective aileron but you also need a stab of rudder in the same direction to get the wing flying again. I wouldnt recommend this to everyone as you can easily flick it the other way if you arent careful.

So, the basics are more power, level the elevator, and dont panic.

To give you a video example, watch this video of me landing my 80'' La7. You dont have to watch the whole thing if you dont want, start at 6mins 10 seconds and watch my approach. The model is always level or nose down in a constant and gradual decent until i land. As it happens the left wing does drop slightly right at the end of the flare but it was no bother.

Now, watch this chap. Same model and trying to land. Watch what happens when he pulls the nose up....

The model warned him with a wing rock and he didnt get off the elevator stick. By the time he added power it was too late

[Chris Lee123]

I'm not a member of a club and fly almost always on my own, so I do rely on forums quite a bit, but I get my friend to show me a few of the basics about stalling as he seems to be able to fly and land far better than I.

[Piers Bowlan]

If an aircraft is very near to the stall or fully stalled you need to un-stall the wing by reducing the angle of attack- that means stick forward, regardless of the aircraft attitude it might be in at the time. Unfortunately on the approach at slow speed there will not be very much airflow over the elevator, so elevator authority will be reduced. Applying power with the stick forward will increase the elevator authority by increasing the airflow over the elevator. However, opening the throttle will cause the aeroplane to yaw due to the slipstream effect of the propeller's rotating airflow impinging on the fin and rudder. Further effect of yaw is roll. So now you have the aeroplane at slow speed with the wings on the edge of a stall, the aircraft both yawing and rolling. This is the classic spin entry scenario or incipient spin. As has been said earlier applying aileron to pick up the dropped wing is doomed to failure as the adverse drag of the down going aileron will increase the angle of attack of the down going wing, causing yet more drag, more yaw, more roll... you get the picture, you have just auto-rotated into a full spin! So if you find yourself in an incipient spin you need to apply opposite rudder, so if the right wing drops, for instance, you apply left rudder. One's instinct will be to use the ailerons so it is only by practising at height, flying slowly and getting the feel of controlling the aeroplane in this flight regime that you learn to recognise and avoid it. In summary, if you find yourself slow on the approach, a dab of down elevator with some throttle may suffice but beware, if you drop a wing opposite rudder will be your friend!