Petition EASA Regulations.

[Erfolg]

I can see a whole raft of disputes and interpretations, when defining what is a club or organisation, with emphasis on model aircraft operations.

Then there is MH speculation with respect to "Suitably Qualified and experienced" as determined by whose and what criteria? What has the BMFA to do with it? Although a BMFA member, that sees the need for the organisation, I am less than convinced that the BMFA should be allowed to represent all aeromodellers. Although I have no vision as to whom is. I do believe that whoever it is should not have a vested interest, or allowed to increase their power.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Ah - the positive voice of model flying eh Tom!

The compromise had in mind is exactly of the sort Martin outlines above. Suppose we were to propose that flying on slope and other "informal" sites should be allowed provided:

1. All persons doing the flying held some sort opf competancy qualification that meant they had established that they knew the law and were able to make a sensible safety assessment regarding a flying site. Such a "qualification" could be for example a slightly extended A-cert type test.

2. There were insured.

3. They were licenced and all models carried their licence numb er and so were tracable back to them.

Now OK - before you loose your rag an start saying these are "restrictions on your freedom" and you've been flying for 423 years at this site and never had an accident and it all officialdom gine mad,..... yes I might agree with all of those sentiments,....but if accepting those conditions (or something similar) meant you could do go on enjoying your hobby, maybe it time to be a bit pragmatic, zip-up and accept it. I know what I would do!

By the way - I wouldn't asume you could carry on flying at non-registered sites and the authories wouldn't be able to enforce it. If we don't win a concession such as that above then think on this - it will be very easy indeed for Mr Plod (or the local authority) to know the very small number of sites were model flying is allowed on their patch - anyone flying anywhere else (unless they have a higher catagory permit - basically commercial operation) would be breaking the law. You will stick out like a sore thumb and be very easy to identify - that's the point!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 13:27:25

[Doug Campbell]

I agree with some of your suggestions but I would hate to see the competancy route accepted. I am involved professionally in competancy assurance and it does absolutely nothing except allow a box to be ticked after jumping through enough hoops.
also there is no way I am registering my small collection of balsa and tissue. It will achieve absolutely nothing The police will have no resources or inclination to chase up a lone flyer, that is just scaremongering.

Edited By Doug Campbell on 06/10/2016 13:52:14

[Piers Bowlan]

I wonder what proportion of law abiding modellers are not members of a club, presumably the BMFA have some idea of this, although not every 'lone flyer' will be a BMFA member. It seems that to continue to fly you not only have to join a club but also to fly from an approved club site? But what if you only fly gliders or 'slope soarers', to be precise. I fly in the South Downs National Park (a big area) from any suitable windward slope away from animals people, vehicles or buildings. The SDNP wardens and land owners that I meet seem relaxed about this activity yet I cannot see it continuing to remain a legal pastime under this new legislation. I don't mind registering or displaying a registration number on my models but what about the requirement to have geofencing and return to home? RTF with a glider?! The rules don't seem fit for purpose, whatever that 'purpose' might purport to be.

[Tom Satinet]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 13:24:20:

Ah - the positive voice of model flying eh Tom!

The compromise had in mind is exactly of the sort Martin outlines above. Suppose we were to propose that flying on slope and other "informal" sites should be allowed provided:

1. All persons doing the flying held some sort opf competancy qualification that meant they had established that they knew the law and were able to make a sensible safety assessment regarding a flying site. Such a "qualification" could be for example a slightly extended A-cert type test.

2. There were insured.

3. They were licenced and all models carried their licence numb er and so were tracable back to them.

Now OK - before you loose your rag an start saying these are "restrictions on your freedom" and you've been flying for 423 years at this site and never had an accident and it all officialdom gine mad,..... yes I might agree with all of those sentiments,....but if accepting those conditions (or something similar) meant you could do go on enjoying your hobby, maybe it time to be a bit pragmatic, zip-up and accept it. I know what I would do!

By the way - I wouldn't asume you could carry on flying at non-registered sites and the authories wouldn't be able to enforce it. If we don't win a concession such as that above then think on this - it will be very easy indeed for Mr Plod (or the local authority) to know the very small number of sites were model flying is allowed on their patch - anyone flying anywhere else (unless they have a higher catagory permit - basically commercial operation) would be breaking the law. You will stick out like a sore thumb and be very easy to identify - that's the point!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 13:27:25

 

I consider my self a fervent optimist. I love the government  / public sector too. 

Licensing of model flying is bonkers when you consider there is no such thing for say flying a paraglider, as far as I am aware.

Another point I would raise is the idea that everyone can fly under the bmfa and it's all fine for 3 years until 2020. The information put out by EASA states that this is a transitional period. It doesn't say this will go on for ever. No one seems to know what will happen after this.

People who have been flying for a long time aren't going to be that bothered by having to do an A cert type test as they are largely going to be competent pilots anyway. The inherent problem with licensing though is that it puts a barrier of entry for people to the sport.

The kind of people who fly in well organised bmfa clubs are the type of people who are going to follow the stasi's EASA's rules to the letter, but they're also probably not the type of person who is a rouge drone operator, if such a thing really exists.

 

Edited By Tom Satinet on 06/10/2016 14:16:23

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Fine, it's your neck. You wouldn't have thought that catching speeding cars on the very quiet prom near my house would warrant the presence of 5 police officers but yesterday it obviously did as they were there! And there will be nothing like a nice big potential fine to encourage them
BEB

[Erfolg]

Tom, I totally agree, that these proposals, when they are enacted, will almost certainly accelerate the decline on people entering our hobby.

I also recognise that the authorised sites, should work for club power fliers. For the rest, slope soarers, lone fliers potentially a major problem. For those organising annual type events, there could be viability issues, if charges are involved.

BEB does indicate why these restrictions will go through, in some form, it is the commercial aspect. There are a lot of parties who will see us as at best, nuisances, at worst, a hazard to their commercial interest. Given the potential for commercial activities, I also envisage that this group will see licencing and fees to be paid, at a much higher level than at present. Of course we will be exempt from these.

I am sure that the criminal and terrorists will be largely unaffected by the changes that will come. probably building their devices from a selection of parts available on line from around the world.

[Tom Satinet]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 14:19:30:
Fine, it's your neck. You wouldn't have thought that catching speeding cars on the very quiet prom near my house would warrant the presence of 5 police officers but yesterday it obviously did as they were there! And there will be nothing like a nice big potential fine to encourage them
BEB

? I didn't say I was not going to follow the law

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Sorry - I didn't mean you there Tom - I was respoinding to Doug's comment about the police not being bothered!

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

There seems to be some confusion about what EASA mean when they talk of "transisional period" - some seem to think this means temporary measures and we don't know what will happen afterwards. This is most definitely not the case! EASA are quite clear about what they intend will happen after the 3 year transisional period.

The situation today is that you can fly a model more or less anywhere you want - subject only to a few local restrictions here and there and the the provisons of the ANO.

At the end of the transistional period (unless you have a higher class approval|) you will only be allowed to fly model aeroplanes from designated, approved, sites

The intention of the transisional period is to allow us time to make the applications to get our sites approved by the appropriate national body. During the transisional period the status quo will hold - ie tou can fly more or less anywhere. But if after that you do not have approval for your flying site then continuing to fly there will be illegal.

So, as you can see - no uncertainty at all!

BEB

[Tom Satinet]

So slope soaring essentially outlawed in most places.

Good job too, they're a public menace /s

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

LOL! Well that's the point Tom - we hope not outlawed - but we need to play our cards very canny to get what we want.

BEB

[GONZO]

In all the comments of the 'lone' flyer no thought has been given to the older 'infrequent' flyer. Infrequent due to a combination of ill health and inability to go flying in adverse conditions. Club fees plus BMFA fees are one thing but when you start to add additional costs and hurdles to jump just to have a flight with a small electric sports model maybe half a dozen times a year then a lot will just say its not worth it. A few will disregard the regs. The fear of prosecution diminishes when you probably only have a handful of years left.

Additional qualifications? How many do I need? I've got my 'A' cert (1980), Hang gliding Licence, my PPL with IMC and night endorsements, to legally fly a foam glider using the lift from the sea wall where I live. Perhaps I should just leave the foam glider at home and buy a para glider. I could then join those I see doing just that with seemingly little restriction.

[Peter Christy]

Strangely enough, whilst hunting through some old paperwork recently, I found my first license for an RC transmitter! It was dated 1965, and stated that I had to nominate the site where I would use the transmitter, and could only use it elsewhere with the permission of the Postmaster-General!

Of course, that piece of legislation was never enforced - I suspect enforcement would have been impossible - and eventually, even the requirement to hold a license was dropped!

Deja vu?

--

Pete

[MattyB]

Posted by Tom Satinet on 06/10/2016 14:13:52:

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 13:24:20:

Ah - the positive voice of model flying eh Tom!

The compromise had in mind is exactly of the sort Martin outlines above. Suppose we were to propose that flying on slope and other "informal" sites should be allowed provided:

1. All persons doing the flying held some sort opf competancy qualification that meant they had established that they knew the law and were able to make a sensible safety assessment regarding a flying site. Such a "qualification" could be for example a slightly extended A-cert type test.

2. There were insured.

3. They were licenced and all models carried their licence numb er and so were tracable back to them.

Now OK - before you loose your rag an start saying these are "restrictions on your freedom" and you've been flying for 423 years at this site and never had an accident and it all officialdom gine mad,..... yes I might agree with all of those sentiments,....but if accepting those conditions (or something similar) meant you could do go on enjoying your hobby, maybe it time to be a bit pragmatic, zip-up and accept it. I know what I would do!

By the way - I wouldn't asume you could carry on flying at non-registered sites and the authories wouldn't be able to enforce it. If we don't win a concession such as that above then think on this - it will be very easy indeed for Mr Plod (or the local authority) to know the very small number of sites were model flying is allowed on their patch - anyone flying anywhere else (unless they have a higher catagory permit - basically commercial operation) would be breaking the law. You will stick out like a sore thumb and be very easy to identify - that's the point!

BEB

I consider myself a fervent optimist. I love the government / public sector too.

Licensing of model flying is bonkers when you consider there is no such thing for say flying a paraglider, as far as I am aware.

Another point I would raise is the idea that everyone can fly under the bmfa and it's all fine for 3 years until 2020. The information put out by EASA states that this is a transitional period. It doesn't say this will go on for ever. No one seems to know what will happen after this.

People who have been flying for a long time aren't going to be that bothered by having to do an A cert type test as they are largely going to be competent pilots anyway. The inherent problem with licensing though is that it puts a barrier of entry for people to the sport.

The kind of people who fly in well organised bmfa clubs are the type of people who are going to follow the stasi's EASA's rules to the letter, but they're also probably not the type of person who is a rouge drone operator, if such a thing really exists.

I don't like it either Tom, but if it is the only way to preserve access to fly slope/flat field at any publically accessible site (which is what we need; registering sites piecemeal under a virtual "club" is unlikely to be a tenable option) I would reluctantly accept a setup as BEB suggests with a competency test, insurance and license number on the model. I am not sure how you do the competency test for slope/flat field pilots though - unlike in powered flying there is a not a large network of clubs and examiners who could certify competence.

Perhaps it would have to be an online/classroom theory test instead checking your knowledge of the new rules? After all the new EASA proposals do not seem to be focussed on improving the level of flying competency per se, they are more about making sure people operate safe aircraft in the right places at the right heights, all of which could be assessed in a theory test. Either way with a generally aging population of active modellers it seems inevitable there would be a significant % who will not want to go through the process whether it is a classroom assessment or flying test with questions a la the current BMFA tests. That group will presumably either give up the sport or carry on outside of the law.

Edited By MattyB on 06/10/2016 15:28:53

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Peter Android]

After the Imposition of BREXIT ,

and Teresa May's Quote " Return to Full British Sovereignty "

Why ? should we not tell the " EASA " to Beggar Off !

En - Mass , and in the nicest possible way , of course .............

[Piers Bowlan]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 14:19:30:
Fine, it's your neck. You wouldn't have thought that catching speeding cars on the very quiet prom near my house would warrant the presence of 5 police officers but yesterday it obviously did as they were there! And there will be nothing like a nice big potential fine to encourage them
BEB

But it is a lot easier catching speeding cars and collecting a big fine, some of which goes into the forces coffers. Now, climbing up a big hill covered in brambles to catch one measly model flyer who might be gone by the time you get there? No, I don't think so. Just look at what happened with hunting with dogs. Lots of debate ( 244 hours of parliamentary time) Stacks of publicity, everybody knows that it is illegal but all over the country it still goes on. Has the world ended? No, unless you are a fox. Are there prosecutions? Very, very rarely and only because of the 'Sabs'. I think the police have more important things to do with their precious time like dealing with terrorism, organised crime, people trafficking, and rampant Internet fraud. So I can't agree with BEB (again- this is becoming a habit), model flyers will be largely invisible to the powers that be, as they are at present.

By way of example, did you know that when a French registered light aircraft had a 'petit encounter' with a foamy glider adjacent to Mill Hill, which is just one mile from and on the extended centre line of runway 22 at Shoreham airport, the airport operator said he 'Did not know that this was a popular model slope-soaring site' It has been for the last 30 years! QED.

[GONZO]

Because EASA is not the EU. It is a pan European organisation that is tasked with harmonisation of aviation rules and regs across European airspace for economic and financial benefit of its voluntary members. Some of its members are non EU countries, like Iceland. We are voluntary members of EASA and the main aviation interests gain commercial and financial benefit by competing on a 'level playing field' against other nations aviation interests.

[Peter Android]

Indeed ?  I make no apologies for being cynical .

 

 

Edited By Peter Android on 06/10/2016 16:22:03

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Steve J on 06/10/2016 15:25:49:

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2016 14:55:32:

The situation today is that you can fly a model more or less anywhere you want - subject only to a few local restrictions here and there and the the provisions of the ANO.

At the end of the transitional period (unless you have a higher class approval|) you will only be allowed to fly model aeroplanes from designated, approved, sites

I can't see anything about approved sites in the prototype. From the note -

"It is proposed that they can continue to operate as of today in accordance with National regulations or practices. After 3 years after the entry into force of the regulation an authorisation shall be issued by the national authorities to associations or clubs taking into account their safety record and defining limitations and deviations to the subpart B.".

So the CAA could allow us to operate as we do today with the addition of a registration scheme.

Steve

An authorisation to clubs is effectively an authorisation of sites and would certainly include the intended site as part of the authorisation.

My point is there is no uncertainty about what will happen after three years - this is not some "short term fix" as some seem to think. Transision means that, the change ovr period from where we are to where we will be.

Piers et al - fine, as I say you are welcome to go out, take your chances and break the law. as I say, its your neck and your reputation. Frankly itsa minor side issue in the discussion on how we could work it so that you don't have to and we save you from yourself and your obvioulsy latent criminal tendancies

BEB

[Doug Campbell]

We really need to challenge the registration of flying sites.

If I was one of these untrustworthy types they are trying to restrict it would have absolutely no effect on me at all. I could park up anywhere, goggles on and away in less than 30 seconds, and the drone would be soon far enough away that it would be impossible for anybody to associate it with me. I have seen it happen frequently. My mate who is over a mile away sends his quad to the field to see if I'm there. Who is going to catch it and track it's source.

As for taking my chances and break the law why not? Do you think the local plod will know if its control line, freeflight or radio dt? Will they carry scales.

I dont know who you are BEB but you appear to havethrown in the towel when there is still a lot to fight for.

[Erfolg]

OMG, you do not know who the good Doctor is!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Stay positive folks, fingers crossed

[Doug Campbell]

Wouldn't it be so much nicer if we could sit in a pub discussing this over a few drinks. Forums help us keep in touch but not too good for debates.

Edited By Doug Campbell on 06/10/2016 17:50:15